[00:00:01.560] - Ursula
Well, hello everyone and welcome again to The Big Life Pivot. And in this episode, I'm really delighted to welcome Melissa Fretwell, uh, someone who I've known for a little while now. We've worked together, created together, etc., etc. And, um, Melissa, welcome.
[00:00:21.620] - Melissa
Oh, thanks so much. Delighted to be here as well. Um, and yeah, we have— I, who knows how many years. Time passes fast and slow, doesn't it? But yes. Really pleased to be here and chat to you more about pivots.
[00:00:35.450] - Ursula
Thanks, Melissa. So, um, rather than me introducing you, I always like to ask my guests to introduce themselves in a way that feels relevant to you right now. Who are you? What do you know? How do you keep yourself busy? What are you up to?
[00:00:50.180] - Melissa
Oh wow. So, um, I'm in the business of marketing, specifically storytelling, and I think that really fits with my passions in life because I believe there's no reason to tell those storys. Every business, every brand has a really interesting story to tell. It's just how you tell it. And I think us humans thrive on stories, and I think that's what galvanises us. Even in an age of AI, when people maintain that AI can do the storytelling for us, I would still dispute that human-led storytelling is the way forward. So that's what I do. That's what I love to do. It comes from years of studying and reading I did English switch to French. I also like to chat in as many languages as I can master. Um, and I currently live in Spain, so I did my own version of Brexit, um, many years back now, and very, very pleased I did what I did. I did make the move when I did, um, as it's much more complicated. But, um, I particularly enjoy this idea of being a kind of European citizen of the world, um, with one foot in the UK and one foot in Mm, lovely.
[00:01:58.490] - Ursula
So what I want to do now is just kind of, um, wind the clock back to the before part of all of this, and, um, we're going to let your storey unfold. I don't even know what it is yet, so, um, so tell me, what was life like before things changed?
[00:02:16.750] - Melissa
Oh wow, it's hard to— when I say this out loud, it's hard to actually believe I used to do this. So for 12 years, yes, 12 years, I used to get on a train— this after leaving London for a better, greener life in the shires in Lincolnshire— used to get on the train from Grantham to London and go and work in my TV job, which of course was a hugely fascinating job. It was working in youth audiences in music and entertainment. We had this lovely setup where we were half owned by Channel 4 and Bound Media, which meant that we were the kind of naughty child took lots of creative risks, we had loads of space to play, I could build my own team. But the reality is, when you're travelling 4 hours a day, you're basically living to work. And you realise that when you want to bring a family up— and we adopt, we chose to adopt our daughter from Sheffield— we realised that one of us had to stay at home and the other had to, to work to keep obviously paying the extortionate mortgage, um, and living the good life. And then really your time with your family is squeezed into the weekends, and you think, is this the kind of life I really want to be living?
[00:03:30.870]
And so for 5 years, through kind of the adoption process, having adoption leave, etc., at the end of sort of 5 years, give or take, um, I started to question, was it worth it, you know? And what— was this meaningful enough job to be doing, not saving lives, admittedly entertaining the nation, or some of the nation, uh, did it justify all this travel, all this missing out on, well, you know, building a family?
[00:04:01.420] - Ursula
So what was that feeling like when you came to that realisation that, oh, maybe this isn't quite right? Is this all worth it? What was that feeling like?
[00:04:10.300] - Melissa
Oh, that's great. I think there was a number of feelings rolling around. One was around the fact that when you, when you see kids grow, you realise time is passing. They are like a visual barometer, if you will, that, wow, things are changing fast, you know, I'm missing out on stuff. So you feel a little bit resentful that you have to work. And it was before the days of being able to work from home. I think I got one day from home to begin with, and that felt really kind of antiquated as well, to be honest, because we were all very experienced and reliable and trusted people. Why couldn't we do more time from home? But that wasn't to be. And then so you start to resent that a little bit, and then you feel a little bit guilty, i.e., a lot guilty, because your partner is taking a lot of the load at home. And if anyone knows about kids that are adopted, they bring a lot of trauma, and it's not an easy path. Um, so you have a lot more complicated behaviours to manage than you would perhaps— obviously every case is different— would you, you know, if you had your own biological child.
[00:05:10.430]
So So there's a kind of mixture of resentment, guilt, the fact that when you're having fun in the office, you also feel a bit bad because it just feels a little bit frivolous. And you start to go, okay, I think it's time we readdress the balance, find a new way of living. We moved out of London to live a greener lifestyle, but in reality, that doesn't happen. I was like, I kid you not, went from a karang rock meeting, uh, to getting home and weeding with a head torch in the garden. Right? Because it was so dark, and I had to look after my garden and do my job, and it just became a little bit overwhelming after a time, and you just felt very tired. That's the key. That's the big sign, isn't it? Starting to feel really fatigued.
[00:05:52.530] - Ursula
Yeah. But, you know, in that moment as well though, we can often feel really stuck. We can see perhaps something else that we might want, but actually, how do we get there? Because what we're doing right now is providing in many other different ways. So So what was the, you know, what was that kind of tipping point? What was that moment when you decided actually something had to shift other than it just being something that you, it was building up in your head?
[00:06:18.010] - Melissa
I think, I think there were a number of factors that tipped us, tipped us in there in that direction. One was when you have dreams, you tend to put them on a shelf because you have this illusion that doing the same thing over and over again, you've got a reasonable job, great job really, You know, you've got a decent salary, you've got this illusion of security, and you think that your hamster wheel behaviour is actually going to pay off eventually because you're building up savings and a bit of a pension. And then, as I say, you suddenly realise, well, I'm not getting any younger here, that dream on the shelf is really gathering dust, how do I make that happen? When you start looking at the wider political context, if Brexit was happening and there was a big kind of trajectory for Brexit to happen fast, it's going to be a whole lot more complicated to move countries, as I'm sure you, you'll know. So let's just seize the moment and go, let's make a plan quite quickly about living somewhere else, building the family unit from zero, um, which has more balance and more parental time, and we can spend with our daughter, and she can learn a new language and be really good at something, which is what you need to build self-esteem.
[00:07:22.090]
Um, but it's frightening, right? It's, it's one of those things where you suddenly think, gosh, where's my safety net? And what helped me kind of move into that world is also my husband's business he was running was funded by EU funds. That funding was going to get pulled. So we're like, okay, well, there is no safety net in the UK, is there? Now is really the time financially and I guess emotionally to make the leap. And it, it was really helpful when you can speak to, um, a careers coach. For example, Channel 4 was superb at, at building support for your development. And I spent a long time discussing the pros and cons of leaving a secure job for freelance consultancy world and building, even building your own business. And the coach gave me so many useful pointers, obviously not directly. She was very clear about when she gave me advice versus coaching, you'll be pleased to hear. But her advice was, pay yourself, you know, you're paying yourself in time, not just cash. So when the phone goes quiet, oh, we're in the late '90s, when the emails stop coming in, when the fax machine breaks, nice.
[00:08:25.540]
When things are quiet, you're suddenly like, this is okay, I'm paying myself in time. And it takes a while to build your brand and build your reputation as a consultant. So she was super useful. She also gave all these useful tips around, do your research, speak to people that have done it already, find out how they're experiencing it. What is it like to actually live in Spain? Because we went from, I love this, London, Lincolnshire, Ibiza. And I had all these kind of preconceived ideas about Ibiza, which were pretty much correct, by the way. There are a lot of Machiavellian characters there, a lot of wannabes and a lot of broken people. But also there's a lot of really great innovation happening and beautiful nature and all that good stuff. So, so the key is just to really try and think ahead as much as you can about life being so different and what the pros and cons of that experience might be. And then at least you feel like you have a number of scenarios to help you feel a little bit more secure in making that leap.
[00:09:29.030] - Ursula
Great, great thinking. And so then what was the thing that made you, having done all that kind of, you know, research, planning, envisioning, you know, kind of changing your relationship with the idea of that safety net that you talked about, what was that moment when it was like, okay, now the step forward in that direction? Was there something that happened, or was it a series of tiny steps? Tell me about that little moment.
[00:09:56.450] - Melissa
I think the moment was when you feel like you're getting to the point of burnout and you're like, right, let's just do it. We'll put the house in the market, it'll take ages to sell, and we can just, just do it, be bold. And because my husband had experience of living in Ibiza, we, we were kind of primed. We'd already started some paperwork, we had some wheels in motion, so it didn't feel like we were literally driving off a cliff. But what was rather impactful was the fact that the house sold in like weeks. We were like, what? Maybe you should put a high price on that house. However, it didn't matter. The main thing was that we sold it fast. And then that's when the actual moment of fear strikes you because you're like, wow, this is real. This is no longer this fantasy of change. This is a real thing. That's happening at, at a rate of knots, and now you got to commit, and there's no turning back.
[00:10:47.350] - Ursula
It sounds like— or it felt like there was no turning back.
[00:10:49.700] - Melissa
You're setting up, aren't you? And then, and then you're thinking, okay, what if I frame it in my head like an experiment, as a social experiment, right? We do it for a period of like 2 years. If all goes terribly wrong, we can go back to the UK and live in a rented flat. Yay! Um, And that was kind of part of it. Remember, this is pre-COVID, so this is when we have this idea that we're living in quite, I think, a state of, dare I say, relative stability on the global scale, the global stage, right? You don't really imagine COVID until you've experienced it, and I think now we have a very different mindset because of that. Well, I certainly do. So yeah, so it was a moment like, okay, it's really happening, and then it's making sure that you're spending time with people you love to say, you know, I'm not going to Australia. We, we didn't look at Australia, we looked at Canada. We just thought way too far, you know, isn't that far away. I mean, you have older parents, that's one of the considerations as well. And this is an opportunity to just, just try something new and, and learn and live differently.
[00:11:52.690] - Ursula
Amazing. So when you were in that shift and you were going and the fear set in and you'd set the ground and you were on your way. At what point did that kind of feeling shift from maybe fear to something else?
[00:12:09.530] - Melissa
Well, I think there's, there's that classic— we used to say with our daughter— is that, are you nervous or excited? And there is that sort of, um, fine line between the two. And I think when you get to a really sunny place and you get to, you know, your extortionately priced, um, Finca that you're hiring, um, and you realise that with the pool, you realise actually, yeah, this is worth it. This is kind of wonderful. And then, and then you are, then you're in this sort of like holiday phase, honeymoon period, whatever you want to call it, where you're like, this is great. And then you forget you've actually got work because I, I agreed in my head I could have like 3 months breather because I don't think I ever stopped working since I was about 14. And that sounds like I'm a proper hustler. 14 was a paper round, but you know, then, then migrated to a Saturday job, then went to university and did all the jobs possible because I massively overspent and had an overdraft. And then you get— you graduate and then you get into a job and you look back and you think, wow, I've had time off.
[00:13:02.770]
I didn't have a gap year, I didn't do any of that stuff. So I had 3 months where I was just like, right, sign up for the Spanish classes, I'm gonna enjoy the island, I'm just gonna see what's here. And then you get into this terrible, like, terribly delightful holiday mode where you're just like, do I have to work?
[00:13:18.170] - Ursula
Really?
[00:13:19.990] - Melissa
And then obviously the financial accountant on your shoulder goes, yeah, of course you do. And also you love it and you kind of miss some of the structure. What I think I missed was this team, the team vibe. That's the bit that hit me, which surprised me actually, because people are quite hard work to manage, aren't they? Even the lovely ones, because they're kind of like other children you have to always think about. And so I was like, I kind of miss the team. And then I was like, right. And because I'm really quite happy, I'm a— we call it bimbling in my house. You know, you just do like potter about. Make nice food, you read a book, have a little walk, take the dog out, maybe have a swim. Before you know it, it's 4:00 PM and you're like, I need to reinstall some kind of routine because otherwise I will become like the person that lives in a van, which is a bad thing, but it just feels like it's not the, the right moment in life to be that person. So I think I had to really kind of listen to my sensible side and go, right, you need to now Install some structure, figure out what do you want to do.
[00:14:24.240]
And it has to— going back to the coaching point, when you— my husband's also a qualified coach, so that was really helpful because all the kind of, I could do this but, uh, am I, you know, the kind of the nagging voice, am I good enough, am I expert enough, um, are people going to respect this and want this, my offer, you know, what's my agency going to be like, um. I end up working with another agency and defining their agency. And then my husband's like, why are you giving them the gold? You've got this. Apply this to your world and see how it grows, you know. And the magic question, I think— and I— and it's something— there's probably more eloquent version of this— is what would you do if you were no longer afraid, right? Take the fear out of it, whatever's nagging at you and holding you back, and just dare to dream a little bit. What would you do? And that's where it got to the point of like Yeah, you know what, I still love marketing. I really love the idea of doing marketing with brands that are trying to change the world for the better, incrementally or massively.
[00:15:24.070]
Why don't you just work for good people doing good things? And that was the moment.
[00:15:29.770] - Ursula
So when you made the kind of initial shift to come to Spain, actually what you were going to do work-wise was sort of slightly open.
[00:15:36.460] - Melissa
Completely open. Yeah, I even thought maybe I'll teach some English, you know, Maybe I'll, um, retrain as a therapist. I had all kinds of ideas. And I think what you realise is actually when you're a step away from a role, you have a much clearer view of what you enjoyed and what you think was valued and what you— where you think your strengths are. Um, and also I have a bit of hustler in me, you know.
[00:16:00.710] - Ursula
I like—
[00:16:01.090] - Melissa
I have quite an entrepreneurial spirit, i.e., you know, if I see a problem, I want to fix it. I am a solutions person. I quite get a kick out of that, you know. And I don't like this idea of especially women in business being limited by the man. I don't want to work for the man. Done that, you know. I want to work with other exciting people, be the leader of my world, and also, you know, bring other people along with us, you know, male or female.
[00:16:25.260] - Ursula
Then they're brilliant, brilliant. And I'm also curious then, were you talking about that 3 months that you kind of gave yourself permission just to have that 3 months to bimble and whatever and explore and learn. And I always think that the pause part of this process is really important, whereas often when we're kind of action-orientated people, we're like busy, busy, busy, gotta get the solution. Actually, the pause part is really useful. And I just wanted to, you know, looking back on that pause now, the fact you gave yourself that 3 months, how did that support you in terms of what came after?
[00:17:01.110] - Melissa
Oh, I think just—
[00:17:02.160] - Ursula
was it just a lovely holiday?
[00:17:04.020] - Melissa
Well, it was a lovely holiday. I mean, who am I kidding, you know? Um, Ibiza has everything you could want and more. Um, until the pandemic happens, but we'll come on to that later. I think, I think the key with the pause is that you— there were interesting things that happened, right, in my head. So I studied French, not Spanish. I mean, why live in a country where you can speak the language? Um, so what was happening was when I was relaxing and I no longer had all this kind of day-to-day work stuff in my head is I was remembering things. Like, all my French came back, and I used to dream in French, and all these words kind of resurfaced because there's certain phrases you can say in French that you don't quite have the same expressions in English, for example. Um, so that came flooding back, and also memories of like childhood stuff. Um, all kinds of things started to come to the fore because they've just been I guess if you imagine a layer of, I don't know, files or patterns or whatever, just that they were right at the bottom because your brain was so, so preoccupied with the job.
[00:18:07.090]
And I found that kind of wonderful. And I was remembering people like, oh, I need to reconnect with so-and-so, I haven't seen them for years. And taking time to do that and also remembering kind of things that I really love doing, you know, like painting. I started doing Watercolours. I mean, I am not a prolific artist, but I find the whole process extremely relaxing, you know. Practising yoga, keeping that going— that I started to do since my adoption because that was an absolute lifesaver to learning how to relax when you're in the eye of the storm and you're thinking that things cannot get any better, that you just think, this is it, in crisis mode every day. We're batting down the hatches every day to get through a day. And then it passes, but it only passes, I think, when you have the skills to sort of manage some of that heavy emotional stuff, you know. And yoga enabled me to do that.
[00:19:01.690] - Ursula
Well, tell me more about what else you might have used there to manage that kind of— the emotional process of that shift. And, you know, then we're talking about, you know, COVID coming along, which was a kind of a whole layer of uncertainty anxiety and a shift for everyone that was kind of thrust upon us. So yeah, tell me more about that, how you coped with all those emotions.
[00:19:22.680] - Melissa
Well, I think the key is talking to people. And as I say, on the work front, I was chatting to people that were, um, who'd set up things on their own. They invited me into, into places like Hoxby, which is really valuable to meet other people who'd taken the leap. Um, I also looked at the School of Life because I really value the work that Alan de Botton and his T, because there's lots of other Allens in there. It's not just about him. Um, and, and there was a big moment of crisis in Ibiza during the pandemic where our daughter had to have a back operation. She had a really extreme scoliosis. Um, sorry, they say escoliosis, scoliosis without the E in English. And it had to be operable. And I just remember when the doctor looked at me, he's like, how did you notice? I was like, because she's like 12 and she doesn't want to be bathed by me anymore. And she was very private. And, um, and I felt that the— we'd got to a point where we managed the kind of uncertainty of moving and setting up business, and this just hit me much harder than the whole move.
[00:20:23.320]
So I wonder if that was a— some kind of subconscious buildup, because they basically said, to not do this operation, you're going to have to pay €45,000. And I was like, Wow, that's quite a lot of money. And how dangerous is this operation? So you've got the financial risk and you've got the emotional risk. And they're like, wow, you know, it's, uh, it's long and it's difficult. And, and to spare you all the ins and outs of the operation, which, which all, cutting to the chase, went very well in the end, and we finally got some support from the insurance company, which was literally like winning the lottery. But during this period of like intense stormy weather, I went on School of Life and I was like, right, this is something I need. I need to find something here that might just keep me sane. What could it be? And they had a course on how to be serene, which I thought was a brilliant title because I'm not really serene ever. I thought, right, I'm going to do it. So I signed up for this course and it was like, um, I think it was like a half a day I can't remember how long it was, but you had some preparation to do beforehand.
[00:21:30.850]
And what I loved about the format was it drew on all kinds of philosophy and history to basically show that, you know, this has always been a, a challenge for us humans to, to find serenity. And then we had a— we did it all on Zoom, and we had a bunch of different breakout areas, and you heard people's storeys, which were tough because people— everyone who's there was going through some kind of like momentous life change. And what was so great for it is that we, we had a series of tools that we can apply, but also we had moments just to listen to other people's stuff. So you realise that you're not the only person, you know, in the boat, in the, you know, the badly prepared boat in the middle of the ocean being hit by metres of waves at high speed, right? And I think that's really key, that you are not alone and it will pass.
[00:22:18.510] - Ursula
Thank you. And so pleased to hear that the operation for your daughter was a, was a success. And how is she now?
[00:22:25.440] - Melissa
Well, she refused to do all the exercises, of course, that associated with the rehabilitation of the back, but her back is, is straight and working. There's no problems. And there was a lovely kind of six degrees of separation about finding a surgeon for this, because they don't, they don't give you somebody, they don't recommend anybody. They're like, off you go and find a surgeon to do the operation. So you're like, wow, where do I look? So I started to investigate all the ins and outs of scoliosis experts in Spain. And then through another friend, her sister-in-law was an anaesthetist and worked in Barcelona, and she said, 'There's this really great guy called Dr. Ventura.' So fantastic, he works with these really great anaesthetists. Great, thank you. And then someone else recommended Dr. Ventura, and then my sister-in-law— excuse me— my sister-in-law in the NHS asked her European doctor friends, who's the best scoliosis surgeon in Barcelona? Dr. Ventura. And then all kind of paths led to Dr. Ventura, who we met, who was brilliant. And then what was lovely is that after the operation, I also met the anaesthetist, because the two go— surgeon, anaesthetist go— they are the magical creative duo, right, when it comes to operations.
[00:23:34.520]
This I learned. And it was the guy that my friend's sister-in-law recommended, and it was like the dream team. And suddenly you realise Well, you have the best people on it and you have the best care possible. And he also— the Dr. Ventura also gave Lexi there a pep talk going, your back is no longer broken, you have a back that's better than ever. You have to now go and live your life, you know, without fear. Just don't do a motorbike and do not go skiing and do not do intense team sports like rugby. And we've followed those rules.
[00:24:03.250] - Ursula
Oh, that's so wonderful. That's so wonderful. We've got to the pandemic and we've got to the, um, your daughter's operation. And in terms of that shift, in terms of that pivot to Spain and growing your own business and fulfilling the kind of new way of being for you, what was, what was happening for you at that time? Because you talked about coming without an idea really what you were doing, then just doing some consulting for other people and then having this realisation, well, hold on a minute, 'Why don't I do something for myself?' Tell me a bit more about that and how all of that came about.
[00:24:41.700] - Melissa
Yeah, great question. So in terms of figuring out the proposition for, for the, um, the White Camino, for the marketing agency, I again applied lots of those other pieces of advice I've been giving other people. Okay, well, model it. Do you, you know, you've got all the skills here because it's your thing. You have to detach yourself from the thing and be much more objective and say, okay, 'Imagine White Camino as a client, what would you recommend?' And again, I had another coach, forgot about her, she was great, she was training to be a coach, she said, 'I would love some guinea pigs.' I said, 'I'll happily be a guinea pig and I'd love to work through this proposition idea with you.' And she was really helpful, ex-TV as well, incredibly smart strategist, and she helped kind of like keep the ties of some of my ideas and my articulations and challenge in a really useful way. So again, I didn't do any of this in a little cave on my own. Did some of, some of the cave thinking and then came out to the light and said, look, does this make any sense?
[00:25:37.870]
So that was really useful and it started to build. And what was lovely is it started to grow out of kind of recommendations, like people I met who were recommending me, people from my old TV land recommending me. And I started to get clients, a couple of clients to start the business, which gave me confidence. To go for it. However, the COVID happened. So my husband's built all this incredible network in Ibiza, loads of great youth programmes at Pacha, Pasha, uh, the nightclub. Um, he's done a series of like event photography, he's building a whole profile of clients, it's going really well. And COVID strikes and the island shuts down completely for a year. So imagine that again, the rug has been pulled You just, you just built something that's really shiny and brilliant, you're dead chuffed with, and it's literally been half, 50% of it's just been stolen by COVID. So now you're in another setback and you're like, is this really happening? And that's where it got to another point where we were like, how do we live differently when we're not so reliant on the outside world? Obviously you are reliant to a point for finances, we all have to eat, but also is there a way of living where you don't have to worry about high rent payments, and we always wanted to buy somewhere, but Ibiza was just getting more expensive, especially during the pandemic.
[00:26:54.910]
I mean, timing or what, huh? Because lots of millionaires were just landing on the island, just ignoring the rules and having secret parties, or not so secret parties, um, that I, by the way, was not invited to, so I'm sure they were rubbish.
[00:27:07.370] - Ursula
Well, you would have hoped that was the least they could do, really, wouldn't you?
[00:27:10.730] - Melissa
Exactly. So you suddenly realise that this is not my world. I mean, I really did— I thought it was not entirely my world from the outset. So this wasn't, again, big news, but it was just that point where you're like, this is not working, right? This is, this is becoming really hard financially and emotionally to, to, to live on a small island that if anything of this scale happens again and we get locked into it, you feel very much isolated and alone. You don't have the infrastructure you do when you're in the peninsula, for example, mainland Spain. You have a lot more opportunities to get in a car, get on a train, get the resource or medical support you need. So that was a moment we're like, okay, we are too vulnerable to keep living the way we're living. What else could we do? How do we live off the land? How do we live off-grid? Are there other models of living in the mainland that could fit? And so the sort of back end of the pandemic was spent thinking about— because my husband had a bit more time on his hands investigating where could we possibly live, how can we make a really sensible balance.
[00:28:16.510]
Yes, we won't have the kind of excitement and buzz of the island, but it will be a different kind of peace, one where you feel like you have space and you have a bit more freedom.
[00:28:30.610] - Ursula
Gosh, so, you know, you, you'd let go so much, moved moved forward so much, and then it was going well, but then there was this kind of other kind of niggle or thing that came up. This isn't quite right, and all this has been thrown at us, and it still isn't right, and now it's time to, to move again. Yeah. So, so tell us, you know, how did that manifest itself? You, you did the research, you had— you felt this feeling of this still isn't quite right, and what else? What if and then you move towards that. So tell us about that next step.
[00:29:04.860] - Melissa
The next step was again trying to be really pragmatic because, you know, after being stuck, the, the pandemic restrictions in Spain were really kind of strict. They were not— you get fined, for example, if you went jogging not during the particular time slot of exercise. Not that I jog. I heard people that jog tell me this. Um, but I think the key The key sort of process was let's look at it pragmatically from a kind of financial affordability point of view, from an infrastructure point of view, and also from our daughter's point of view. Because obviously she— we're creating another change, and you, you feel really kind of conflicted when you, when you, when a kid who's been through quite a lot of change has another change. So you have to be really confident that you think the pros are going to outweigh the cons. And in her case She had a wonderful colegio experience, like primary school, and they— and she could repeat a year, which again was another motivation to go to Spain because she, she has a lot of catching up to do. She has caught up brilliantly, by the way, emotionally.
[00:30:06.970]
Um, and in the UK, repeating a year was just not— in school was just not a thing that they advised. But we could do it in Spain because she had to learn the language, so it made total sense. And we had this wonderful family school until she's about 13 and then had to go to the secondary school, which was so draconian. I mean, it was just like I can't explain how off, off-key it was. Incommod— it was like a school that looked like a prison put in the most beautiful valley in Ibiza next to a wonderful restaurant called La Paloma. And you could just hear like donkey's braying, but the school itself was just grim, grey, and draconian, and didn't have any of the kind of nurturing that our daughter really needed. So we're like, well, schooling-wise, she's not exactly missing out here, is she? Um, if we move. And then medical-wise, they have like 2 psychiatrists, um, and maybe a couple of psychologists, none of which understood, looked after children. So that was another motivation. So we've got, we've got better, in theory, better support in the mainland. And then it's just, just trying to go, okay, I'm a big fan of spreadsheets and planners, you can gather, to get it all down, what's in your head down, organised.
[00:31:18.410]
And then it's kind of like, where? Like, where do we go? Where's this beautiful place that's going to really fit all these, all this wonderful criteria that we've laid out? Are we being unrealistic? Are we being too fantastical about it? Does this kind of utopia exist? And obviously not in its entirety, because then we, then we do a lot of exploring. And I think, again, research is key. Talking to people is key. And also having to learn Spanish. That's the other thing we haven't touched on. Because you think in Ibiza you can just get by with a few like hola, ¿qué tal? Yeah, fine, you can. Go to the mainland, if you do not speak Spanish or Valenciano, you are really in the dark and they will make the most of that. Well, not everybody, people are very welcoming to be fair, but people that try to sell you things will be like, fantastic, the guiris are here, let's just add another 20%. And so another thing to sort of allay my feelings of 'Oh, you know, it's another big leap,' is learn the language and learn the language as fast as you can, even if it's not perfect.
[00:32:21.310]
And it went from— to illustrate that, it went from people calling up about a delivery or something and me saying, 'Sorry, I'm English, I'm learning Spanish,' and they used to hang up on me. I never got that delivery. Well, not immediately, because people just have no patience. And I find it so hard to take a call in Spanish. But yeah, I kept trying, I kept going to the classes, and I kept reading up, you know, all these kind of— all these different methods of learning Spanish, watching stuff on Netflix with the subtitles on, whatever I could to try and get to that point where I could have a conversation. And, um, and then I thought, right, okay, we can do this, we can actually talk to estate agents and we can make this happen. And that's kind of— that was kind of it, really. And then we just decided— my husband explored lots of different areas around Valencia, Valencia it coming up as the place to be. And as you know, Valencia is a massive region, right? Fast. Spain is huge, especially compared to, you know, a tiny, you know, Ibiza Island. And then, and then we just did it, and we were like, let's cheque out places, let's make trips, let's go there, invest time, energy, let's get Lexi across the whole journey thing.
[00:33:27.110]
And luckily, other people from the island have— people do leave quite a lot because they realise that actually it's not for them. And lots of families were saying, oh yeah, so-and-so's moved to Denia or Gandia, whatever it might be. So it wasn't a kind of radical thing, but I think again it's just making sure you're using both head and heart when you're making these decisions.
[00:33:46.280] - Ursula
So the research being key, the kind of going on the journey, the exploring, the opening up the possibilities of what might happen. So you find the place, you arrive there, And how long, how long have you, you know, how long has that been, that, uh, since you've arrived there?
[00:34:05.360] - Melissa
And, uh, it's been about 3 and a half years. But just to add a quick twist to the tale, we did try and get an orange grove— kind of giving away the punchline here— um, and we went to sign it. So we had our stuff in the van coming from Itha, we had our other stuff in our van, and then we were, we were all ready to go and move in. And then we went to the notary's office and everyone's chatting in Valenciano. I'm like, por favour, you know what I mean? I've waited ages trying to get my Spanish down and now you're— this is not fair. Right? Like, please, let's speak in Spanish, castellano Spanish. And everyone obliged. The whole family there, right? They're ready to get their hands on their inheritance cash. And then, then it's so funny. It was so dramatic, but it was quite funny. Now, the notary, uh, was speaking to our lawyer, and he was like, yeah, the thing is, it's not entirely legal. We don't have all the paperwork for this place. Um, and so we could not move in. We decided— we made a deal after 3 hours of negotiation We made a deal to live in it, to rent it basically, um, and then if they found the paperwork, got that motion in play, we would buy it.
[00:35:06.670]
Um, and so we move into this, uh, um, half-finished, half-not, amathen, like old orange kind of warehouse in the Campo. And then we realised that actually this is not going to work either because Uh, it's wild. What can I tell you? There's wild boar like kind of ramming the fences. There's lots of disputes over sharing of the water pump. Um, there's like snakes in the garden, which is freaking out our daughter. There's flooding when it rains intensely. The, the roads turn into rivers. Um, and while it's not a long way from civilization, it just becomes this total like nightmare, and you're like, ah, this is not going to work, is it? So again, we have to move and we have to buy somewhere pretty sharpish. And then we find a place that we think we can live in this place. And, and as I say, I'm skipping over all the dramas within that, but we basically buy the History of Modern Spain house with all its contents in. We don't have much furniture by this stage. We'll just leave it, you know, we'll have everything. And, and, um, and that was a real success storey.
[00:36:12.550]
And that has been a real— I mean, it's the seventh bridge in terms of, uh, you know, doing it up. But it had such a great feeling and a great vibe in it, and it felt like we could live in this space. Lexi had freedom to see her friends, you know, go to school. She could walk everywhere and jump on the train. All the good things that you need from starting to build your, your new status quo. But what a journey! Wow. If you told me all of these things were going to happen, I would probably think twice about making that leap, really.
[00:36:41.510] - Ursula
Really, but you didn't know. And now that you're on the other side, you know, how do you feel about it? You know, how— what would you have said to yourself, that one that was 2-hour commuting backwards and forwards every day?
[00:36:52.890] - Melissa
I mean, that's it, isn't it? Is it— when I say, you know, you bring them to it because that's the problem, isn't it? If you list all the— if you list all the issues down on a piece of paper, then it's not an attractive proposition. But you realise you are much more resilient than you think, and what you need from life is actually quite small. You start getting these kind of sense of contentment and satisfaction just from being in a little town where people say hi to you in the street. I went to the supermarket on the way here, bought some strawberries, have a chat to the lady. She's had a haircut, talked about that, looked great. Um, and then you feel like you are in a place where people see you and they're not so in your pocket where you feel like you're being observed, but it's just this lovely kind of relaxed atmosphere. People have time for lunch. People have time for a little, uh, cerveza, little beer on the way home. There's a little paseo which is dangerously between my office and my house. I've created a space between work and home, which I think is really important as well.
[00:37:49.080]
Um, so I think it's worth it. And I also think, God, there's so many storeys in there that you could tell people when they're thinking, oh, my world is imploding. Like, yeah, you think it is, trust me, imagine this happened, you get through it. Sense of humour, absolutely fundamental. Ability to be kind to strangers, not— and trying your rubbish Spanish out, absolutely fundamental. And then you realise that actually if you have a really kind of positive, um, can-do attitude, chat to people in the street, especially the old people because they have time and they're very bored and they love the fact that you're not from around here but you're trying to speak Spanish, it all kind of comes together and you suddenly feel that you're part of a local community.
[00:38:28.940] - Ursula
And I think that is super So you, you were saying about actually, you know, our needs in life can actually come down to something much more simple. So what have you learned? What have you learned from that, from the place you're at now?
[00:38:42.760] - Melissa
This is a great question. I think when I used to go to London, I didn't realise how materialistic I was becoming, because if you work in just off Oxford Street, can you— and, and then laterally in Victoria, which still has temptations, you, you actually are being bombarded by loads of messages to buy, buy, buy every day. And it could be things, even things from buying a Pret sandwich to, to buying a fabulous new pair of shoes, to going out to a particular new bar that's opening. Either way, you are really feeling the commercial messaging, either, you know, overtly or subconsciously. And I don't get any of that because it just doesn't have that same level of impetus to, to showcase, I guess, who you are through your trappings here. Valencia more so, and I do go to Valencia because I do believe life is about contrast. You can't always be in a small town. You still need— I still need a hit of culture and, and, you know, bustle and kind of big city vibes for sure. But I do think that you realise that, that if you're replacing, if you're trying to buy your happiness, as I say, this might be totally subconsciously Um, it's not actually what you value at the end of the day.
[00:39:56.240]
What you value is spending time with good people, enjoying great food, going for lovely walks in nature. At the weekend, we found a mountain I didn't even know existed, although someone had told me about this, but I was like, yeah, I'll get to that another day. Finally got there, I was like, it's like being in the Pyrenees, 25 minutes from my house, walking the enormous puppy. Who then refused to walk half the way back, um, just made it again a really memorable day. So you really value this time outside in nature, being master of your schedule, deciding when you want to take an afternoon off or not. If you want to work at the weekend, you can, doesn't matter. The point is you are in charge of how you run things. And then when you get on a train, it's not because you have to get on a train to get to the office, it's because you want to go to your ceramics class on Wednesday. Today is Wednesday, it's an exciting day. Ceramics. Ceramics. Yeah, there are all these. And that's a great example of another thing you really value, is that I've been wanting to do ceramics since I passed my GCSE Art, and then my folks said, don't follow art because it's just really risky having a crazy artist uncle in the family.
[00:41:08.530]
And we're like, oh, you know. So I put that on ice. Going back to things you put on the shelf, on ice for many years. And finally, aged like 49— now 50, in case you're wondering—
[00:41:21.240] - Ursula
49, start— Congratulations!
[00:41:22.260] - Melissa
Thank you, Ursula. Feeling, feeling quite kind of old but also quite young. It's a very odd number, isn't it?
[00:41:29.220] - Ursula
50.
[00:41:29.420] - Melissa
Odd in a good way. I think it's great to achieve it. Um, but ceramics is a great example about how you value— you realise that the valuable things in life are not actually about making a perfect pot Sadly, I don't have any examples on my desk. It's about the process. It's about putting your phone in a drawer, otherwise it's going to get very dusty, possibly broken, and to start using your hands and inventing. You— I don't go in there with always a solid idea about what I want to make. I look around the studio, I look what people are doing, I look at magazines or pictures, or just think, what am I going to do today? Oh yeah, I'll make a tulip-shaped egg pot— egg pot? Egg cup. 'Just make an egg cup.' Great. And then just— and we have like 4 people at the table and it's 2 hours of just bliss making stuff. There's not a load of chitchat, but again, great for the language. I just, you know, enjoy a bit of Valenciano, a bit of Castellano, smashing a chitchat, few jokes. Sometimes they don't land, but we're working on those. And then you've made a beautiful thing.
[00:42:30.620]
And even if it's not beautiful, it kind of doesn't matter.
[00:42:32.700] - Ursula
It's just the whole process of Yeah, I'll just go with the flow and do something different and doing something with your hands and something that's sort of in our DNA almost, isn't it? Because I think so. I, I remember being told by a pottery teacher that, um, we are all potters somewhere in our history. All of us humans were potters because it was sort of part of survival, was knowing how to make a pot that you could hold food in or cook food in or drink from. So I always feel—
[00:43:01.060] - Melissa
I love playing with clay. Yeah, I think that, that would make total sense. I think it's up there with putting your hands in soil and digging and planting and weeding and all that good stuff.
[00:43:10.770] - Ursula
Yeah, amazing. So, you know, good time for things, time for experiences, time for, you know, the journeys, time for conversation. Um, that's amazing. So how do you feel about life now?
[00:43:25.320] - Melissa
I feel like I am in this, in this, um, kind of almost sort of magical world in a way. I feel incredibly happy that my Spanish is still progressing. I mean, sometimes it plateaus, but I'm, I'm still investing time and energy into classes. I'm, I feel like I'm building more kind of friendships because I avoided the expat community for a long time, for good reason, but now I've decided that that's perhaps a little bit extreme. I need to kind of meet some, meet some more people through, for example, things like my ceramics class. I run a People Planet Pipe meetup to talk about sustainability because I'm really passionate about how do we fix these kind of big problems in the world. I don't, by the way, have all the answers, but it's certainly great to talk to other people in that world. So I feel like, um, there's a, there's a, a sense of contentment for sure. I think there's still a huge kind of driver within me to keep working, and pipeline is always a challenge when you're running an agency. Like keeping that flowing, and you have peaks and troughs and trying to manage the old feast and famine that we all talk about a lot.
[00:44:29.390]
Um, but I feel really kind of— what's the word— kind of enriched and sort of sustained by what I'm doing. I love the fact that I can, you know, learn stuff, go to webinars, talk to nice people at conferences, dive into all kinds of papers, because it's really important to keep feeding your brain. And you never know when that's going to be useful for work or just simply edifying for your own curiosity, you know. And I do feel that the light here and being in a country where you have a lot— I mean, it does get crazy hot in summer, let's gloss over that— but, but in a country where you have lots of light and lots of ability to be outside and, I don't know, walk and train the pesky enormous puppy, um, that is kind of really fulfilling, you know. And I don't take any of that for granted because I think you have to, you have to, um, you know, be grateful that you have still have the health to do it, but also the fact that you've worked quite hard to get here. You've had a kind of objective in mind.
[00:45:27.220]
And while I still don't live off-grid, that's still on my list. Can I talk about my book here?
[00:45:33.800] - Ursula
You've got a book as well, right?
[00:45:35.440] - Melissa
I know, sorry, it's a book that inspired me. I was just going to say, talking about off-grid, one of the things that I absolutely loved, I think inspired the whole idea of, A, moving out of London, then trying to figure out how do we live off-grid is the classic John Seymour, uh, Complete Book of Self-Sufficiency. And what— excuse me— what I realised about the title when I looked this up earlier, because I sometimes invent titles, I had to cross-check it, um, there's a subheading which says it's the classic guide for realists and dreamers. And I thought, that is me right there. Yeah, this idea that if you were to get some land, how could you make it work for you, and how do you then simplify what you actually need to survive versus all the things you love doing, like nurturing plants and working with animals and bees and having this wonderful rhythm with this, with the seasons, right? Wouldn't that be an amazing way to live?
[00:46:29.960] - Ursula
So I was thinking, um, so, you know, with this thinking about then, like, one thing that helped you with all of these shifts that, that was going on, would it be that book or would it be something else? That helped you?
[00:46:43.750] - Melissa
I think, I think it's a combination of things. I think the book set up the dream and the idea that there are ways of achieving that dream. Because in the UK, as we all know, is the idea of owning land is a fantasy, right? It's just, unless you are of landed gentry, um, lineage, I don't think it's easy to do. Or you're a farmer, of course, which I'm sure is less— has it— brings its own set of challenges. So I think, um, It's this idea of the— it's, it can be achievable, but you have to move to find it. Obviously New Zealand's apparently great as well, but that's very, very far away. Um, and I think it's also around getting, you know, keep, keep talking to people about removing these limiting beliefs and this idea that you can't do stuff because— and everyone is capable of learning. And I think I love a lot of Malcolm Gladwell's work. In fact, I was thinking about this this morning. I think it's from What the Dog Saw. I think that's the name of the book. Again, sorry if I've invented that title, but there's a chapter in there which talks about late bloomers.
[00:47:44.990]
And this— because sometimes I think in media world we're very like, well, it's just for young people, you're going to get too old and then you'll be unemployable. Whereas I think there's a lovely bit of sentiment, and he compares Picasso versus another impressionist artist whose name escapes me. Um, and Picasso had been working for years and years and been a kind of career artist for years, and obviously not a very nice person, but that aside, that's not the point. He'd been working from very young, very successful for a long period of time. And then you have other artists that come in and start getting known in their 50s. I'm like, that is great. Like, why do we all have to think that there's a certain shape to a successful life, whatever you define as successful? You know, it's not too late. We're more experienced than ever. We have probably less, um, kind of familial pressure in theory. Don't get puppy, don't get puppy, you do. Um, so you are in a prime for making these brilliant ideas a reality, and I think that's super exciting when you've reframed it.
[00:48:44.710] - Ursula
Yeah, I think something about those ideas is that they don't often show up in the way you might expect. So actually it's letting go of the limiting belief of the idea and exploring the possibilities can also be, you know, it might be that you've been looking over here for a while, but actually the thing is over there, and you've got to kind of widen your gaze out to kind of be able to take that in as well. I think is a really interesting thing, and that comes from lifting those limiting beliefs and possibly redefining what, what success means for you, and thinking about work and being paid for work and the work you do that's your life in a slightly different way is what I'm, what I'm kind of exploring and discovering.
[00:49:25.070] - Melissa
I think that's it. I think that's spot on. And the fact that, you know, we have to get beyond this world of like, your salary doesn't define you, what you do doesn't define you as your job title. What defines you is the, is the impact I think you're making. And that could be, as I say, chatting to— there's a man with no teeth that, that makes a kind of greeting noise from his balcony every morning, and I always wave to him. And that to me gives me a little bit of joy because I think well, he must be really lonely. And he sees this woman with the crazy enormous puppy in the street, and he must think— he must have all kinds of ideas about who I am. But I just love this idea that, um, you know, these things all carry value. You know, you're buil— if you're building a community and you're trying to build a kind of— some kind of balanced world where you're not always about generating dollars, euros, pounds, then value that in a different way. We just need a different currency, I think.
[00:50:17.890] - Ursula
That's interesting, invent a new currency. So on that note then, if there was one thing that you could say to someone who might be watching that feels like stuck and doesn't really know how they might move forward, what would you say to that person? Or what would you like to have heard all those years ago?
[00:50:38.020] - Melissa
I would love to say that to speak to somebody because you're just to understand and, and tease out what it is you think you want. Because sometimes what you think you want isn't what you want, because when you get it, that's not enough either. And actually, it's not really about getting a thing, it's about creating a lifestyle, or creating— I don't know, do—
[00:50:58.550]
fixing a particular problem that's really dear to your heart, you know. So speak to someone because they will help hold a mirror up to that and tease that out. So someone like yourself, right? Ideally somebody who is not in their family would be my tip as well, because I didn't even pay you to say that. I believe it's so vital because we can live in our own little echo chambers, and I think coaches are brilliant at extracting some of that stuff and just kind of, you know, if you talk in terms of Lego bricks, you know, there's a big pile of Lego bricks and a coach can help you build something different with those Lego bricks that perhaps you didn't realise was quite there. You had an inkling, but you couldn't quite define it. So I think that's really key. And also realise that, you know, and it's a classic, it's a bit cliché to say this, but I'm going to go for it, so life is short. You never know what's, what's going to be thrown in your path that might suddenly stop you in your tracks. So you have to at least try and do things your way, you know, because that's having your own choice and autonomy to do that is hugely exciting, right?
[00:51:58.590]
And if not now, when is the key, isn't it? So get off the shelf.
[00:52:04.750] - Ursula
If not now, when? I love that. Thank you so much, Melissa, for a wonderfully creative and inspiring conversation. Um, before we wrap up, is there anything else you feel needs to be said that we haven't said?
[00:52:19.760] - Melissa
I think, I think the key to life is looking at things as an experiment, because if you just cut your ideas by success and failure, then that, that can be incredibly demotivating. And not really representing what's happened. So if you think of an experiment, there are a number of outcomes, and some will be palatable and some will be less palatable. But either way, there are learnings, and you can build on that. And if you don't— because an experiment sort of takes away the fear, doesn't it? There's— nobody wants to fail because we're conditioned by that. So let's think of it like, how can I experiment today? What can I try that's new and different that might deliver something exciting?
[00:52:56.830] - Ursula
Mm, love that, love that. Thank you so much for that wisdom. Um, and I could carry on talking to you, but for now I think, um, it's time to say just thank you so much for coming on and sharing your storey and in your, your several pivots is sort of what, um, uh, what happened for you as, um, as you went through this journey. And thank you to everyone, uh, watching and listening, uh, to this episode. Of the Big Life Pivot with Melissa Fretwell.
