[00:00:04.030] - Ursula Capell
Hello and welcome to The Big Life Pivot. You might notice that in this episode you don't see me on screen. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, obviously that won't make any difference to you at all, but if you're watching on YouTube, you might just be wondering where I've gone. Well, this episode is a small example of imperfect action in action. I didn't get the technical setup correct, so actually you're going to see all of my guests and none of me, but the conversation was too interesting and too valuable to hold back just because I wasn't in the video. So I hope you enjoy the episode, and if you do, please like, subscribe, and share The Big Life Pivot with someone who might be navigating their own life change, be that big or small.
Welcome to The Big Life Pivot, today I am talking to a colleague and friend of mine, Jim DeZoete, who's joining me today to talk about the pivots and the changes and transitions that he's had in his life. So as part of this podcast, I like people to introduce themselves in their own words so that I'm not presupposing where you're at in your life. So Jim, please say hello and tell us, um, where you're at right now and introduce yourself in a way that feels right for you.
[00:01:18.910] - Jim de Zoete
Thank you very much, Lesley. It's great to be here. So yeah, my name is Jim de Zoete. I am currently, I guess I would call myself a creative consultant, but I think that's sort of up for grabs as well. Essentially what I do and have been doing for the last couple of years is my background is very much advertising and broadcast and film. I'm no longer in an agency, I'm a freelance consultant and I help brands and agencies. I help them shape their creative departments, and I mentor people within the creative industries, and I run workshops on various different kinds of creative topics, and I lead creative projects myself. So I'm still on the tools, kind of increasingly doing more writing, going back to writing as well, which has been really interesting. So creative consultant is a sort of catch-all term for what I do, I think.
[00:02:18.210] - Ursula
Okay, great - a work in progress, it's flexible in terms of what you're, what you're doing, which is great. So just tell me, what was the thing that changed for you, and what was life like before things changed? Tell me about that bit before things changed.
[00:02:36.530] - Jim
So my career had always been very much 5 days a week, 9-to-5 jobs in the creative world. So I've been at the BBC for a long time, then an agency called Red Bee, and then another agency called Across the Pond, which was working a lot with tech clients. So from leaving school, and then I started at Saatchi & Saatchi. So having left university, I had been in a 5-days-a-week creative job, you know, copywriter, creative director, executive creative director, sort of working my way up through the ladder in a kind of traditional way, you know, salary jobs. Um, and then in my last agency, I'd sort of been running that. So it had, you know, there were 3 of us running that agency. So it had always been a very structured, very, um, I guess traditional, and in some ways kind of safe way. I'd never been freelance. I'd never done that. I'd always enjoyed the stability I guess, of a full-time job.
[00:03:40.640] - Ursula
Interesting. And when did you first start to kind of notice for you that something wasn't quite right, or there was a bit of an icky bit, something wasn't quite sitting right with you? What was that all about? Tell me about that.
[00:03:55.470] - Jim
Well, a lot of it wasn't my doing, which was quite interesting, you know. A lot was the situation. I think what I noticed in myself about 7 or 8 years ago I had really wanted to run my own agency and run my own creative department. That was an itch that I had. So I went to this agency called Across the Pond where I was global executive creative director. But more importantly, there were 3 of us running it. I loved that, the teamwork of running an agency and trying to make it successful. And it was, the project was all about transformation. We wanted to go from being a production company to a creative agency, so it was incredibly exciting. I was there for 5 years, and I think towards the end of it, I started to - well, the background was we were having problems as a business, and the last 18 months were really, really hard, and it had become really, really hard. And I, I'm, in the way that you do, you, you I was so head down trying to make it work that I was very all-consumed by it.
But I did notice, but not consciously, that I wasn't really enjoying it. You know, it was just hard. It was really hard. And I really, for my own sense of self-worth, really wanted to make it work, and make us successful. But I had stopped…
[00:05:24.950] - Ursula
So you didn't realise that there was maybe something that you weren't enjoying at the time. It's when you look back, maybe you realise that you weren't enjoying it because you were trying so hard. Is that what you're saying?
[00:05:34.320] - Jim
Yes, the bits of it I had stopped enjoying, and I had stopped - it's because you're in a different kind of mode. I guess we were in firefighting mode. We were in like, how do we keep this business alive? What do we need to do? Which in some ways is highly engaging because you're in a battle and a struggle. So it's very all-encompassing and engaging. But I suppose in a way I'd stepped away from the creative work a bit. I stepped away from the creative people a bit because I was so focused on the business itself, which of course comprises of all those people, but it has needs and goals and all that, you know, and find that very, very big financial drivers behind it. So that was the sort of background. And then of course what happened was, for me, was that we reached a point where it wasn't financially viable for me to stay there. And myself and actually, uh, the MD as well, the three of us that were running it, which was - this was the real shame because we were a real team as well.
But it was, the writing was on the wall, and it was just a very, very tough operating environment. Um, and so redundancy came, and that was…
[00:06:47.920] - Ursula
…and was that something you were part of the conversation on, did you feel like you were part of that decision-making process, Or was it something that became the thing that happened that caused the shift for you? How did that play out?
[00:07:02.390] - Jim
I was part of the decision-making process in the sense that as part of the leadership team, we were looking at the numbers all the time going, well, how's this going to add up? How do we keep this thing going? And actually, I think to our credit, myself and the MD particularly, who's incredibly selfless about it, was like, well, said to Julie, who ran the business, you know, it's going to be hard to continue this business with us. You know, we're the biggest cost to the business. Maybe there's a different way of doing it. So in that sense, I was part of the decision-making process. Like, it was an ongoing conversation and I could see it happening. In terms of my own internal feelings, I don't think I'd really clocked… I don't think I'd really thought that it would happen somehow, and, you know, that it kind of - we'd find a way through. So I don't think I'd processed it consciously and thought - this could be interesting, or - I think it was more driven from a place of fear, of like, I don't want this to fold. And also a desire for, for, you know, a natural human desire to want to make it work.
[00:08:11.710] - Ursula
And a passion, a passion for what you're doing and the people in the business.
[00:08:14.840] - Jim
Yeah, exactly. All of those. We were all desperate to kind of keep it going. And in fact, what's great is the agency has ridden through that time and is thriving and doing well all over the world.
[00:08:31.370] - Ursula
Brilliant. Yeah. And what did it mean for you then as you found yourself in that situation and the realisation that, you know, you were going to be stepping away? How did that feel?
[00:08:42.850] - Jim
It felt very surreal in that I was sort of like, God, I can't— having gone from a place of feeling like we were thriving and doing really well, it suddenly felt like, I can't believe I'm sort of in this position. And I felt very fearful. I think, you know, that was the, that was the overriding feeling. But I did also sense a liberation as well.
[00:09:11.870] - Ursula
So in amongst all of that going on, there was a little glimmer of something.
[00:09:16.420] - Jim
Definitely. Yeah.
[00:09:17.490] - Ursula
So tell me a bit more about that feeling.
[00:09:19.790] - Jim
It was really a very interesting feeling because I was both kind of, on the one hand - and that's what happens as well also when you're in those kind of redundancy conversations - where you're having to both kind of parallel track. Well, the way we were doing it was like, is there a way of keeping me in the business? What would that look like? But I may also get made redundant. So I was having to parallel track in a way thoughts about staying, but also thoughts about leaving, what that would look like. And I could feel a a feeling of liberation, a feeling of excitement that I'm not - the stress of the last 18 months is going to be gone, or 2 years, whatever it was, you know, that kind of weight. And actually, what else lay ahead, and what else could I do, and what doors might open um, so sort of trepidation and also this little thing of like, oh, this could be interesting, this could be really interesting.
[00:10:16.430] - Ursula
And so what did it feel like to be carrying - you know, you're in that place where you're carrying both possibilities and noticing how each one of those is making you feel, or, you know, what your reaction to those is. What information did that give you about the choices you could make in that time? If you, you know, for example, if you'd had the choice to go back and stay? Do you think maybe you would, or do you think maybe actually the call of, um, the call of, you know, the redundancy and the call of that liberation might have been something you decided to step into?
[00:10:47.960] - Jim
That's a good question. I don't know. I think if the opportunity to stay had been there, I probably would have stayed. But now I think it was an extraordinary opportunity and has - and I found it enormously rewarding, which I'm guessing we're going to talk about. But at the time, I don't… but it was weird. It was a little, it was a little crackle of like excitement, a little thing that I… and I could hear it and I could listen to it, and I would oscillate between kind of going, this is the worst thing that could possibly happen, I'm going to get made redundant, how am I going to earn money, how am I going to look after my family, And then there's also that little bit of me as well, and I think maybe this is - I don't know if it's for creative people as well, but it's - but for everyone, but like a feeling of like, oh, creative possibilities are going to emerge here. Like, I want to I suppose throughout my career, the thing that's always excited me is doing new things.
I've always found it very unsatisfying doing the same thing, you know, the same brief over and over again. So just that, that instinct to like, oh, ‘this is going to be new’ was exciting.
[00:12:06.090] - Ursula
So that's really interesting. You were talking about this going on where there was the fear of ‘how am I going to survive and how am I going to pay the bills’ versus the creative opportunity. So how was it to live with that uncertainty and that balance of fear versus opportunity, if you like? What was going on there? Can you talk more about that?
[00:12:32.090] - Jim
Yeah, I mean, it was stressful. It was, and it was taxing. Because I guess holding those two feelings at the same time is hard. It's hard. And, you know, it's that strange thing of negotiating your own redundancy from a place that you've loved and you've helped build while also having one eye on the future and going, where, what could that… where could I end up? So it's..
[00:13:03.730] - Ursula
I, um, so who were you having to be when you were doing that? You know, what kind of mindset did you have to adopt? You know, how did you decide you were going to handle that?
[00:13:15.780] - Jim
Oh, that's a great question. I think, I had a very strong feeling that I wanted to leave - I suppose it's about dignity and integrity, and I wanted to leave on good terms. That was my main thing. It was like a karmic thing. I felt, I felt very strongly that if I could leave well, I would have, it would help me in the future some, you know, that it would be good for my own sense of self-worth. I wanted to leave well. So that I would go into the world feeling positive. And actually, I had a conversation with a great friend of mine who's a great friend of my sister's, who - she's a headhunter at a very, very high level. But she's this sort of amazing guru of these sort of things. I'm lucky enough to be able to be able to ring her and say, can I come and talk to you? She said to me, she said to me, I know, amazing resource. She said to me, something that's really stayed with me. She said, it's better that you are in a positive frame of mind when you have conversations with other people as you're leaving than having… so she was sort of saying, don't have the conversations if you're feeling rubbish. Like, it's much better if you kind of preserve your positive energy.
I took that as a sort of mantra throughout the whole process, which was like, I'm going to leave well, and I'm going to leave feeling good, and I'm going to leave as much as I can control it, you know, in a positive frame of mind. So there was something about the integrity of leaving, of like, I didn't want to just disappear either. I wanted to say goodbyes, and I wanted to be really open with my team and keep supporting them through it. And, you know, it was hard for them as they were losing their kind of creative leader. And, so I worked really hard at trying to support them Because it made me feel good as well and really positive, and, and that helped me go out, I think, with that feeling.
[00:15:21.160] - Ursula
What I love about that is that would have been inspirational to yourself and to everyone else around, that you were being really mindful about your, your ending and stepping into your new beginning and deciding who you were going to be, being really intentional about it.
[00:15:36.640] - Jim
Yes.
[00:15:37.420] - Ursula
So there you are, you've gone, and you're now kind of stepping into this, you know, you've woken up in the morning and now you are in a new phase, you know. What, what's happening? How are you feeling?
[00:15:52.990] - Jim
I felt, again, it was the same two feelings, of absolute terror of, you know, the mortgage and all that, and then, and then absolute excitement of like Okay, where's this going to go and where's this going to lead? And the thing that I did, which again came from my friend the guru, um, headhunter consultant - I'm sure headhunter's the wrong phrase, I'm sure she would recruit very high-level recruitment, she basically just said, go and have coffees with everyone you've, you've worked with and you know. And it was just the simplest and best piece of advice that I've ever had. And I just did. I was very open and honest with all the -I just wrote down a whole list of people that I'd ever worked with and that I really, I really liked and I really enjoyed working with. And A, I was surprised how many people sort of I had on my list. And B, I was surprised how people really wanted to help and were immediately positive and like, great, let's meet up. And I was very, honest and open of this is the situation.
[00:16:59.900] - Jim
And I, I have no idea what I'm going to do or what I want to do. And people were just so helpful and positive and interested and interesting. And, you know, I was like, maybe I go back to a full-time job, maybe I don't, maybe I go freelance, maybe I start my own agency, maybe I, you know, and I found that I consciously kept it very open-minded. I wanted to be open-minded about it and not be like, I've just got to get another job and I've got to get another job as quick as possible. I didn't do that. I was like, I really want to explore this and give myself [time] I had a 6-week period or something where it was a kind of gardening leave type time. So I had a little bit of space and, you know, but I really tried to build space to explore.
[00:17:56.300] - Ursula
And what did having that space to explore give you then? What, what did that mean to you? How did that play out?
[00:18:03.670] - Jim
It meant immense space to sort of let go of the past, to kind of go, just to let that process that a bit and be with that. It gave me Well, I don't know if this - again, it's like, I don't know if it's a creative thing, but what I did was I would go and have coffees with people. But I would also - one of the brilliant things that happened when I left the agency was they gave me a National Art Pass as a leaving gift. And it's like, it's a brilliant thing. It just gets you a discount off art galleries and museums. And I would carry that with me, and I would go and have conversations, and then I would always go and try and see an exhibition of some sort. And the reason that I wanted to do that is because I wanted to sort of fill up again, to sort of give, feed myself and give myself inspiration in a way that I'd sort of felt like I'd given. I'd always been giving to the business all the time and focused on that, and I was like, you know what, this is just going to be a bit about me and my creative juices and sort of filling up again.
And, and that was brilliant. So I'd have a coffee, go and see an exhibition, and come home and feel excited and interested. And I think the process of having coffees is, yeah, it's partly about kind of networking and making connections and all that stuff, which sort of came into play later. But at that stage, it was also about hearing my own voice talking about, you know, the, the act of talking and having conversations just triggers so many thoughts and helps you figure out in your own head, what's going on? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What would I like to do?
[00:19:45.020] - Ursula
And the idea of maybe of trying things on for size? Did you find yourself saying slightly different things in different conversations and thinking, actually, that feels great, and that maybe is me more than that? And kind of learning, as you say, about the different hats you could be wearing…
[00:19:59.900] - Jim
Totally, totally. And hearing from other people's experiences of doing the same thing. And that was, I mean, that was the other, the main sort of thing for me was I, I thought being made redundant was kind of like a disaster, sort of end of the world. And so many people I met were like, oh yeah, I've been made redundant like, you know, 2 or 3 times. Like, you kind of, you haven't really had a good career if you haven't been made redundant type thing. And I was like, oh right, okay, I didn't know that.
[00:20:25.100] - Ursula
It was like the whole kind of like, this is a badge of honour.
[00:20:28.090] - Jim
Yeah, exactly. And you hear other people's experiences, and some people would say how much they hated you know, they'd gone freelance, they'd hated it, and they just, they couldn't deal with it. And then other people would talk about how they really loved it and what it had given them… And so through that, it gives you a prism to kind of start listening to your own responses to that and go, well, you know. And I'd never, so I had never in my whole career, whatever that is, 25 years, I’d never been freelance. I'd always had a salary job. So it was definitely a big, big deal.
[00:21:03.150] - Ursula
So what would you say you learnt about yourself through having that space and filling yourself up and having all these conversations and trying on different, different possibilities? Um, and, and yeah, and exploring those possibilities. What would you say you learned about yourself in that process?
[00:21:22.270] - Jim
Well, the first thing I learned is I really enjoyed talking to people about it. And really hearing people's thoughts and ideas. And, and that's through those conversations, so many ideas sparked up. And they were like, oh, have you thought of this? And have you thought of that? I was like, wow, that's… I'd not thought of any of that. And you know how much wisdom everyone else has. I was just soaking that up.
[00:21:43.640] - Ursula
So that's brilliant.
[00:21:44.990] - Jim
That was amazing, I thought. And then also, and just this thing of how much people want to help. The other trick that my friend, Recruiter Guru, said to me, she said, well, look, you, you start with a group of the people that know you, and they may know you, in a way, they know you as they, they see you as they know you. So, you know, Jim works in advertising, he's an executive creative director, therefore I think of him in that way. She said, what's really interesting is once you get beyond that circle people see you differently. So they don't - because they don't have any baggage and legacy of who you are and what you do. So when you talk to them, they reflect back to you things in a totally different way. And so she said, like, the concentric circle is to get outside your concentric circle, and you suddenly get different views. So I'd meet people that I worked with for years, and then, um, you know, they would really kindly - I would say, is there anyone you think I should meet? And people were brilliant at giving introductions to other people.
And so I'd meet people who didn't know me, and then when I reflected back, when I said - they said, so, you know, what are you doing and what have you done? And I would talk to them, they would see connections that I hadn't seen before, and I found that really fascinating. And they would suddenly say, oh, okay, so you've got a bit of broadcast and a bit of tech. Have you thought about doing this, or do you know that person who works in that space? And so suddenly these kind of tentacles open up..
[00:23:05.980] - Ursula
And you get this kind of all these different mind map of different connections and places you can go. How exciting. So here you are now. How long down the line are we?
[00:23:20.890] - Jim
I'm coming up to 2 years.
[00:23:24.260] - Ursula
And what's life look and feel like now?
[00:23:28.690] - Jim
Life looks very different and feels very different now. It is a real mix of stuff. So I'm talking to you from home. I spend probably a bit more time at home. But what I do have is enormous flexibility, which I love. So I get to see more of the kids, and that's brilliant. It looks like a tapestry work-wise of different things. So I sort of have 4 different strands that go on all the time. So I'll be doing the creative work, so writing on projects or creative directing projects. I'll be running workshops for different people, helping them. I will do mentoring, paid mentoring for agencies and brands, and then and then I'll come in and consult on creative departments and how they're set up. And so it's a real mix of stuff, and I don't know generally from month to month what I'm going to be doing, which I find nerve-wracking but quite exhilarating at the same time. I'm learning, I think, to ride, to be able to see out the quieter times and trust that the busier times will come.
[00:24:46.630] - Ursula
Has that worked for you so far?
[00:24:49.810] - Jim
Yeah, so far, broadly over the 2 years, that's worked. That's worked out. And, um, but it is hard when you're in it. I find the lows are really hard. When it works, it's amazing. When I'm busy, it's amazing. I love it. When I'm quiet, it's hard.
[00:25:09.790] - Ursula
So what are you learning about those quiet times then and how to kind of, you know, optimise that, if you like, and see that as part of the process in a way? Or do you? Is that the right thing to do?
[00:25:23.460] - Jim
Well, I would like to get to that point. I think it is really hard when you're in them to not just think, I'm never gonna work again and I'm selling the wrong thing and, you know, who needs this?
But the thing that I have learned is that continuing to talk to people and have coffees is my kind of, is not only my way of getting work, but it is also my way of feeling connected. And, and one thing, one thing that I've really enjoyed is that when you talk to people, because also I guess I'm just curious about people's businesses and where they're at and how they're, how are they doing and what's going on with, how are they dealing with AI and what are they going to do here different. And then when you talk to other people, it's like you, you share that. It's knowledge sharing. It's kind of all of us in the same industry trying to figure it out. And so you're constantly kind of sharing what you've heard from one person, and you realise that obviously, you know, people within businesses are often, as I was, just in one business.
And so it’s much harder to get an overview or feel what's going on. And actually, I feel very lucky that I go in and out of lots of different places all the time, and so I'm constantly learning from different people and hearing.
[00:26:35.300] - Ursula
You kind of like— you've become like a pollinator.
[00:26:37.470] - Jim
Yeah, if you like. Yeah, very good phrase. Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:40.900] - Ursula
Amazing. So from the place you're at now, how would you define happiness or success today that might have been different to how you might have defined it in the past?
[00:26:52.300] - Jim
Oh, that's a big question. Um, it's a good one. I think there was something in me that really wanted to be leading a creative department, kind of in my own agency. I don't think it was status, it was more like that was sort of the natural path, and that there's a kind of a ladder involved, you know, a sort of like I wanted to get to that point. And see what it was like. And I loved that we were an independent agency and I had a stake in the business, and I loved that investment in it. But success now, and trying to make a success of that was my goal, and, you know, for what - and in many ways it was a success. I'm not saying I would never do it again because I think I would if it was the right thing, but success now feels like I've let go of that a bit, and I'm more interested in… what I love is that I feel like I can go into somewhere and I can have a real impact, you know.
I can make a real difference. I'm hired to do a specific thing, you know, whether that be to mentor someone or make the whole team better at storytelling, or whatever it might be. Or a project is coming, it's like, this project needs a vision or writing. And there's this feeling of real impact that I love. Like, I'm not having to do a lot of the other stuff that comes with… there's this sort of stuck grey stuff in the middle of like running a business, you know, being a creative leader, where it's sort of like, what am I doing? Is this making any difference? Is it helping? Is it not? Sort of not quite the work, but it's also it's, it's a lot of meetings and a lot of that kind of stuff. Um, and I am enjoying the feeling of impact. What I've really noticed though, is that the reason I think I find the quieter times hard is not just the sort of financial question, but it's the team question. The thing that I love is being part of a team. And I do miss that on a daily, on a kind of regular basis.
But when I'm on a project or doing something and I feel like I'm part of a team, I absolutely love it. Really, really love it. And so that's when it works really well for me, when I can come in and be part of a team for a few months. I get that hit of being a team member, working towards a shared goal.
[00:29:32.740] - Ursula
Brilliant. I love that. I was here really hearing the word impact and about being able to have an impact. That's a powerful thing, isn't it? It's almost like concentrated impact, whereas the overall impact in what you're doing now is probably equal to or more than previously, but you didn't have to do all the other stuff in the background as well. So you get to kind of do the rich impact pickings, if you like. That's what I'm hearing there. I really like that.
[00:29:59.150] - Jim
Yes.
[00:29:59.330] - Ursula
So what are you most proud of in yourself about this kind of whole journey that you've been on and are continuing to go on?
[00:30:07.830] - Jim
Um, I'm proud that I'm making it work. And I'm proud that I haven't lost my nerve somehow, that I've sort of backed myself, because I thought I may not be able to do this. I thought I may not be someone who's capable of not having that stability. And I'm proud that I've managed to make it work and that I'm flexible enough to do that. I've sort of surprised myself, I suppose. I've surprised myself that I'm flexible enough to be able to ride the highs and the lows and take the chances and not think, oh, I've just got to get a job. And, you know, I've just been like, actually, this is good and this is enjoyable. And I can't see the future but there's huge benefits to that.
[00:31:08.770] - Ursula
So if somebody listening is feeling stuck or in kind of a position that you were in a couple of years ago, what would you want them to know? What, what kind of wisdom would you offer them?
[00:31:23.460] - Jim
I mean, the most practical sort of wisdom would be to talk to people, is to connect with people and talk to them and ask questions. And that was the big surprise for me. It was the really big surprise and I wished I'd done it before. And so it's like, I think maybe, I mean, I had a forced transition. I didn't want to leave, but you're going to get made redundant. And so it was a very kind of binary forced transition. But I think in retrospect I was probably coming to it anyway, actually, in truth. I'd sort of done what I needed to do there. I'd sort of achieved the goals, and so it was probably time anyway to move on. But I think I would have started those conversations a lot earlier, of just, of just talking to people and going, I'm not sure quite what I'm doing. I'm not sure if I'm entirely happy. And I've just found it amazing, the feedback and the just how much people want to help you and how much people are prepared to give of their time and their thoughts and just how much that opens up your mind to possibilities.
[00:32:38.190] - Ursula
That's so heartwarming, actually, the idea that, um, people want to help and will give their time, because sometimes we can switch on our TVs and radios and open our phones and we don't feel the world is like that. And actually, when you kind of step out into the world in front of you, the real world. Actually, people do want to help. It's my experience too. Yeah, so it's lovely to hear that. Lovely to hear that. So, just thinking about the whole journey so far and where you're at now, a couple of years ago, your future self now would have been kind of unknown. So I'm, I'm really curious about what would today's self if you could go back in time and give that message to yourself 2 years ago, the old self, what would you tell them? What would you advise them?
[00:33:31.060] - Jim
I mean, it's sort of, it's a platitude, but try not to worry too much. I mean, it's sort of, it feels like a platitude, but it is that. Try not to worry too much.
[00:33:43.020] - Ursula
What would you, if they weren't going to worry too much, what would you advise them to do instead? Replace the worry with something else?
[00:33:55.050] - Jim
Well, I, I don't think you can. Personally, I don't think you can sort of replace - or maybe that's the wrong advice. Not don't worry. I think that's the wrong advice because I think it's completely natural actually to worry, and that's part of it. And actually, in a way I suppose my experience has been the same almost all the way through, these two emotions, which is fear, which I've, you know, very much still have, and excitement of the possibility, and trying to be okay with those two things and go, you know what, those two things can live alongside each other, and they're probably mirror images in some shape or form, aren't they? Of like, you know, to feel excited, you're going to have to feel a little bit scared, and that being comfortable with those two things is probably the simplest piece of advice. But also, like, in practical terms, just getting out and talking to people is really good for your soul, it's good for your knowledge of yourself, it's good for your connections, it's good for, um, people around you.
And it's like my friend who said, you know, you want to be in a positive frame of mind, it's just the best advice because it's like, yeah, And I've always…. the other extraordinary thing that's happened, well, not, maybe it's not extraordinary, but is that I felt my mind open. And like, lots of ideas have come up that I had, completely unexpected ideas just from what I've been doing in the world around me has come up. So for example, a book idea has emerged around children and sports psychology for children, which is not something… it just… somehow there's a bit more space in a way… that I guess, in the kind of consultancy world, where you're not employed all the time, you know, where stuff, if you can let it, it just bubbles up. And, you know, I've always been of the view that it's a Richard Curtis quote which I always loved, which is, ‘if you want to make things happen, make things’. And I really love that - and in a way those conversations are part of it.
It's just like getting stuff out and just talking and putting stuff out into the world is the thing that, you know, really helps.
[00:36:12.750] - Ursula
Wonderful. And what you're talking about with the kind of the worry or the fear and the positive attitude it’s, you're right, it's not about replacing one with the other because they both have a role to play. But it's sort of deciding who's driving the bus of your life in that moment is how I tend to describe it with clients. Do you want fear to be driving you today, or do you want to choose a positive attitude. And that can be hard, but actually if we can make a choice, then we'll have a better experience if we choose the positive attitude to drive the bus that day or that week but know that fear is there to kind of keep us real sometimes, right? Because we are wired, we're wired for survival, so that fear plays a very important part of that survival mechanism. So, really, really interesting.
[00:36:58.300] - Jim
Yeah.
[00:36:59.280] - Ursula
So finally, is there anything today that you feel like you wanted to share that you thought you were going to talk about today but you didn't? It didn't come up for whatever reason.
[00:37:09.470] - Jim
One of the things that you and I were talking about before this on your sort of list of potential questions was around, a book actually that - or a book or a podcast that I gave someone. This is quite specific to me, but I was thinking about this and I was thinking, ‘oh, that's tricky.’ And you know, there's lots of different things I listen and read or whatever, but the book that I found really… I loved was… it's a book by a guy called William Goldman who was a screenwriter in the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s type thing. Anyway, the book's called ‘Adventures in the Screen Trade’, and I was reading it because, I'm fascinated by screenwriting and also storytelling, and I've run workshops on storytelling, blah blah blah. But he's so funny, and his basic premise is that no one knows anything. No one knows anything, really. And he's very funny, and he sort of hates his own writing. He's like, that screenplay was awful, that one was terrible. But he's very funny, and he breaks down why he thinks that they're terrible. But there was something in his kind of, I loved his, there was a sort of liberation in it of him just going, ‘I don't know’. I don't know. I just try and do some stuff, and if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. And I don't know.
And there was something about it that I found really energising. It doesn't, as I said, like, the fear is always there, but like, there was something about the energy of just like, ‘I don't know’,
[00:3:39] - Ursula
I’m just gonna do it anyway.
[00:3:42] - Jim
I'm just gonna… exactly.. I'm just gonna do it anyway, that I found really, really sort of, made me laugh and cheered me up. And I was like, well, if it's William -he wrote Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, you know, probably my favourite ever film and he said something like, ‘there's only one line in it I really like’, or something like that. Oh no, he said, ‘I think I got away with it. I think it just about works’. I was like, oh my God. There was just a freedom about his thinking that I found really kind of enjoyable of just like, you know, what can you do? You just go for it and then.
[00:39:20.700] - Speaker 1
Brilliant -And just once again, what was the title of the book for anybody who's interested in following up on that?
[00:39:25.750] - Speaker 2
There's two. They're both equally as good. The first one is called ‘Adventures in the Screen Trade’, and the second one is called ‘Which Lie Did I Tell?’ Really, honestly. And as he writes, as you can imagine, as he's a screenwriter, but he writes so brilliantly. And so, but it's just so funny, his attitude is, yeah, no one knows anything, so don't worry about it.
[00:39:48.640] - Ursula
Sounds great. I think I might pick up a copy myself. Sounds great. Well, Jim, thank you so much for joining me today, in the early days of my podcasting journey, pivot, adventure. Really, really appreciate, you taking part and your support and for the wonderful insights that you've shared today. Really interesting. And I like the idea of just trying it out anyway, even if we don't know anything. So, which probably describes this podcast. But I hope that the interesting conversations and the real and honest human-to-human conversations that we're having will be of use to other people who might find themselves in an icky space and are looking for ways forward, or ways around, or ways over. So thank you very much for joining me today.
[00:40:34.470] - Jim
Well, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed it. And yeah, I think it's a brilliant thing what you're doing, so keep doing it.
[00:40:40.440] - Ursula
Oh, thanks, Jim. That's fantastic to know. Thank you.
