[00:00:03.740] - Ursula
Welcome everyone to the latest episode of The Big Life Pivot, and I'm super, super excited to— well, I'd like to say be interviewing my friend and colleague from the past, Alex Hussey, who in a moment I'm going to invite to introduce himself about his incredible Life Pivot, and I look forward to a really interesting conversation with you. So welcome, Alex.
[00:00:32.790] - Alex
Hello.
[00:00:34.090] - Ursula
So I'm just really keen for you to tell me in your own words, or tell all of us in your own words, who you are and where you're at right now. What's going on with you?
[00:00:43.230] - Alex
Hi, yeah, no, my name is Alex. I am, um, well, for 20 years I worked in advertising and media industries, and now I am a vicar. I've been a vicar of a church in St Albans for about 4 years now.
[00:00:58.630] - Ursula
That's amazing. What a, what a shift. So tell me about— if we like dial back to before you made that shift, just tell me what life was like, what was going on for you before things changed.
[00:01:12.170] - Alex
Um, well, I, uh, I did languages at university We're gonna go right back to the beginning, uh, and there's— language is one of those weird degrees that you, unless you're going to be an interpreter or like a French teacher, there's not an obvious thing to do with it. Um, and I quite— my, my parents, um, my dad, um, and mum had kind of like worked in very kind of public sector jobs, and I thought, uh, right, uh, I, I, I— my eye was turned. I wanted to go and work in London and have a creative, exciting job. So I applied for a grad scheme in advertising at that time, and I remember at the time it was either that or I was going to go and work in Africa. I had that lined up as well.
[00:01:56.530] - Ursula
And that's a big difference.
[00:01:58.310] - Alex
Yeah, it was really. And I decided in the end to go the way of advertising, and I got a job in an ad agency in London, and I stayed there for my whole of my 20s and 30s, really. And On the whole, I really liked it. It was a good choice for me. It was creative. It was interesting. I was working with like funny, clever, smart people who I liked on the whole. And yeah, it worked really well for me. But I think in the back of my mind, there was always a slight sense of like, this is fun and it's interesting, but I don't really care about it. I mean, I care about it because I want to do a good job and I'm working for these people and I want to do a good job for them. And that was a kind of matter of of kind of personal pride. But the bigger picture of kind of, I didn't so much worry about. So if I was working on Terry's Chocolate Orange, for example, I wanted to do a good job and I wanted to do something creative and interesting and I wanted to see some success as well.
[00:02:55.710]
And that was really exciting. But in the greater scheme of things, I didn't really care whether people chose Terry's Chocolate Orange or Milk Tray, for example. So, you know, there was that level that was sort of bubbling right deep down under the surface that, that for me was ultimately a problem from time to time.
[00:03:16.490] - Ursula
And so when did you first sort of notice that feeling that there was a, like, a bit of a, bit of a mismatch even going on?
[00:03:24.650] - Alex
I, I think I'd always sort of had it bubbling under the surface that fundamentally this wasn't really for me, um, and it wasn't going to kind of— and I, and I had that thought of if this is all I did with my life, I think I don't think I'd be all right with that. I feel like there needs to be something else. There needs to be something more than just this.
[00:03:47.430] - Ursula
So what was that feeling like? Did you kind of feel it in your body somewhere? Did it manifest itself in some way?
[00:03:54.930] - Alex
It would manifest itself in the middle of the night when I'd wake up thinking, I make 30-second adverts about chocolate for a living. This is, this is really weird. What are you doing? It was those sort of moments. It was like that kind of voice in the back of your brain that kind of— I don't know what you'd call it. I mean, you know, I'm a person of faith, I would probably link it to God in some way. Um, you know, I think it's that kind of prompting of just, this isn't, you know, this isn't me, and, and that this isn't kind of like super satisfying for me. And I think, to be honest, I kind of assumed that everybody had that on some level. And I think probably on some level everybody does, but I think for some people it goes so deep well, that they don't— maybe they're not so— that it manifests itself differently for them, or they're happy to just do something in their spare time or something like that. But for me, it was just becoming— and it was kind of like, sort of, as you get more senior in advertising, the politics becomes more and more of a thing, uh, and I think kind of— and I, I really didn't enjoy that.
[00:04:56.090]
So kind of the, the, the politics becoming more of an issue, the industry becoming more and more kind of um, more or less interesting, really. It was becoming more and more kind of diversified across all kinds of different sorts of media, and it was just constantly fighting for spend the entire time. Uh, so it was becoming less enjoyable, to be honest. And at the same time, what happened was, um, myself and my partner, we started a church in London with some friends, um, that we were doing, uh, on Saturday afternoons, um, a few times a year in our spare time. And I just absolutely loved doing that. And the more I did that, the more I thought, this is great, I'd love to be doing more of this. And then that then started to beg the question, maybe, um, maybe this is the thing. I mean, I'd had, I'd had various abortive attempts to try and change it before, you know. I sort of thought, well, maybe I can do a little sideways move and just go and like be a brand manager for a fair trade chocolate brand, or, or go and do government advertising, or just something that felt a little bit more like it had a sort of bigger big picture sort of theme to it.
[00:06:04.590]
But for whatever reason, it never really worked out or came off or felt quite right, really. And, you know, and actually, to be fair, one of those moves was coming to work at Red Bee, actually, which is, um, you know, the BBC's kind of in-house agency that then became separate. And, um, and I— and that had more of a public service ethos, and the people were correspondingly kind of nicer, I think, possibly. And I really, really enjoyed working there. So kind of, you know, there were times when I absolutely loved it. And the whole time I was at Red Bee, I didn't really question it much at all. But then I sort of thought, I need to move on and develop my career in advertising and do the right thing and move back into the sort of proper cutthroat, big Central London agency and realised pretty much straight away this This is really not me in all sorts of ways.
[00:06:56.560] - Ursula
Yes, I'm curious about that then, because actually you sort of talked about the more senior you got, the more politics there were, and it sounds to me like it was more— it was about less about being creative and more about the politics, and those two things are pretty mutually exclusive really in my experience. But then actually, then you went and did something else that you really quite enjoyed, laid that kind of voice in the middle of the night to rest a little bit. But then felt you needed to go back to the something else to further your career. So what did success look like for you then? What was going on with your idea about what success meant to you?
[00:07:33.790] - Alex
I think that, that is a really interesting question of what success looks like, because I mean, obviously it's really clear in the advertising industry what success looks like. It means being more senior in a big agency and winning awards. Really. And so I was on this kind of path, I was trying, you know, I was thinking, right, that's what I've got to devote myself to because that's what success looks like in this particular kind of sort of rut that I'm in, that's what doing this rut well looks like. But really, and I don't know, I've never really been into like expensive things either, which kind of helped. And I don't know what that was about, but I just— I never really was. So kind of, it, it was never about lifestyle. It was always just about being seen to be successful and achieving was the thing that kind of was my drug, really, that I wanted to.
[00:08:32.630] - Ursula
So it's interesting you said it was about see— being seen to be successful, because I'm, I'm always very curious about this kind of outward, you know, view of success, or society's or industry's view of success, which you just talked about, versus what our inner version of success is.
[00:08:48.190] - Alex
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:48.650] - Ursula
So actually, as part of that, what, what did you start to learn about was your, um, was your inner version of success?
[00:08:57.410] - Alex
Yeah, I, I think, I think it, I mean, it comes from our— often it comes from our childhood, doesn't it, and our background. And I think my background was, you know, I grew up on a a kind of a fairly grotty part of South Bristol, um, and, um, my parents both did very worthy public sector jobs, and that was the thing I thought was important. And so though I was kind of going away and scratching my itch and trying to be glamorous in London, really and truly, that, that was where I'm— that's where I'm from, and that's the, that's the, the framework of values that I'd grown up with. Um, and so it was surprisingly easy, I have to say, to ditch advertising. It felt completely inconceivable when I started questioning it. I thought, how can you possibly make such a big change? How can you possibly totally turn everything upside down and change everything about your life and everybody in your family's life? How, how can you possibly do that? But actually, when I left there was pretty much nothing I missed. It was really interesting. I thought I was going to miss it a lot more than I did.
[00:10:07.770] - Ursula
So that's so interesting. So what I'm really curious now is about the journey, because we don't suddenly make that decision overnight. We don't— it doesn't go from one to the other overnight, you know. Um, actually, it's a kind of a big— it's a massive great ship sort of turning degree by degree to, you know, to all its course. So, so what was that process like for you? What was the kind of moment or series of moments that made you— moved you towards that change that you'd started to explore with this Saturday afternoon church that you suddenly filled you with joy?
[00:10:40.650] - Alex
Um, it was a long process, um, to sort of deciding to, to kind of ditch advertising and do something different. Um, and it, it had all kinds of levels to it because there's like the— there's so many levels on there. There's the financial level, how are we going to cope? There's the what will What about friends and family? And how's my partner going to fit in with all of this? Kind of, you know, how can I— what will happen with my kind of the way I lead my lifestyle, you know, and kind of what's going to change about that? And am I ready for that? And what will that look like? And what would that look like? So there's all these big things to work through as well as the whole, is this even the right thing to do? Or is— all right, because it feels— because it's so different to what I'm doing now. How on earth do I make an informed decision? 'Is this really the thing I want to do? How do I really know what it's actually like?' were the sort of big questions. Fortunately, the Church of England has a— is really into the idea of a discernment process, and so there is a process when you start exploring whether or not you might be right for ministry, which involves kind of like speaking to lots of people, having— being interviewed by lots of people.
[00:11:51.880]
You write essays, you write reflections, you go and spend time with people that are doing the job. So they make it quite easy for you to do all of that research because they're really invested in making sure this is the right thing for you, um, you know, and making sure that kind of the right people are kind of leading churches. So that, that's— so, um, yeah, it was the process was probably once I named it, it was probably about 2 years between starting to talk to other people and say, I think this might be me, um, and you make yourself quite vulnerable when you first tell somebody I think I might go and want to do that. Because, because that isn't who you are and it isn't what your identity is, it can just sound a bit mad and a bit barmy. And actually, those initial people's reactions are quite crucial, actually, whether they go, oh yeah, I can see you doing that, or whether they go, what on earth are you talking about? What kind of screwed up midlife crisis is this? Um, you know, and I, I had all of those reactions, I think.
[00:12:51.340] - Ursula
So what was it, the thing that sort of through all of that steered you to realising that it was definitely, you know, you deciding it was definitely the right thing for you to do? Because you had to kind of put all that noise aside, I suppose, and really find that, that thing that, you know, connect to the thing that told you the answer.
[00:13:10.400] - Alex
What was that for you? The things that helped me were I found somebody who talked about, I mean, because obviously in the church as well we will talk about calling as well, and I think kind of, you know, obviously obviously for us that's a spiritual thing, but I think it's true for anybody making that kind of decision really, you know. Calling is another way of saying what it is I'm— what am I meant to be doing? What am I supposed to be doing? What can I do? What, what will fulfil me to do? Um, as well as kind of what can I do well? Um, and I think that the, the biggest— one of the biggest things that I struggled with was what are pull factors and what are push factors? Because there were things that were pushing me away from my old job, my old career, um, which were, you know, it wasn't really fulfilling my— it didn't really fit with my values. I didn't— I enjoyed it less and less. I looked to the future, what it would look like, and I didn't really want it. So there were lots of things pushing me away.
[00:14:01.150]
But then you've got the other issue of, but is this other thing the right thing to go into? The sort of, you know, where is the pull thing really? And I think I never— I probably got from like 80% not sure about that to about 20% not sure about that by the time I actually got selected, um, for ministry. Um, but there was— it was still a thought in the back of my mind as to, is this just one terrible midlife crisis, or is this the right thing to do? Um, when, when, uh, we had our, um, before you get ordained, they sort of send you off on a retreat for a couple of days, and some learned bishop was there, and he said to us, if you're called to this, he said, it's the best job in the world. If you're not called to it, it's a living hell. And I do think that it was not very helpful at that point to say that, but I do think that's absolutely true. And that's probably true of other jobs as well. Um, but you don't really know until you're doing it as to whether or not that's really the thing.
[00:15:05.270]
And that's the thing I found. Uh, and, and it's like the things I don't like about it, um, don't really bother me. The things that kind of you'd think would be something that would make it not a good job to do don't really bother me. The things that, um, I do love about it, I absolutely love about it. I think one of the other things I did was I— what you— one of the things you have to be able to do is sort of put aside the business of getting from where I was to where I am now and try and imagine what it's going to be like at the end of the process. So I imagined, I thought, okay, well, I'll be this sort of age, I will be at this point in my life, other things will have— would be like this in my life by then. And now if I'm doing that, then is that where I want to be? And therefore, do I want to go through all of the kind of stress and indignity of changing career to get to that? And I think I looked at it and thought, as you know, I'll be— yeah, that'll work.
[00:16:05.250]
I'll have a good sort of 25 years of ministry still ahead of me by the time I get there. That's— and I made the choice, it was worth doing. And I'm really— currently is really glad that past me was able to, to do that.
[00:16:17.950] - Ursula
Amazing, amazing. So you, you went on a journey and then you took a leap of faith almost because you envisioned what it would look like. And actually it sounds like you felt quite comfortable or quite inspired, joyful, comfortable with what you could see yourself being in the future. It felt like it fitted perhaps.
[00:16:37.570] - Alex
Yeah, yeah, it did, it did. I, I thought, yeah, I, I can imagine this, I can imagine this. And there was like a colossal amount of uncertainty about it. Um, I mean, I am, um, I'm a, um, I'm a gay man and I'm in a— my partner Dave and I have been together for, um, 23 years now. So, and the Church of England is not— is probably the only organisation in the country that's allowed to discriminate against me on that basis. So, so that, that was a kind of interesting, um, that is, it's a slightly mad choice to make in lots of ways, and lots of people said that to me. Um, so there was an extra level of uncertainty about it from my perspective as to whether this was the right thing to do. Um, but the more I looked into it and the more I found out about it, the more I just thought this is what I'm supposed to be doing, this is what I can do, this is who I should be, this is what, what I can give back to the world, I suppose. Um, and so yeah, I just, just jumped in and went for it in the end.
[00:17:43.080] - Ursula
So what was there any particular thing that you can think of that propelled you to jump in and go for it, or did you just decide that you were going to be, you know, brave and jump that extra 20%? Was there something that happened or something that you reflected on that propelled you across that 20% line, or additional?
[00:18:04.480] - Alex
Um, one of the things that somebody— that I read somebody wrote about that, this kind of like discernment process, is do other people see you in this role? Are other people already kind of like seeing you this way? And, um, two sets of friends had asked me to help, um, plan, uh, their weddings, for example, and they wanted, they wanted me to help with the sort of faith side of, of that. Um, and, and I, I found that as I was managing more people, um, I was ending up, um, in more of a kind of the pastoral side of that job I was enjoying more and more. Um, and also I went to go and see— I think a big turning point was going to see a friend who is an archdeacon, so a very sort of senior, um, clergy person. Um, and he is somebody who I've known since I was in my early 20s. He's also somebody who absolutely will tell you what he thinks, regardless of how that might come across to you. Uh, so I knew that he would he would tell me the truth, to be honest. So I went to him and said, you know, I'm actually thinking about the church, maybe, uh, is this— am I mad?
[00:19:25.890]
And he went, he went, oh, for goodness sake. He said, I don't know why it's taken you this long. Um, and I said, oh, don't you think it would be really weird? Do you think I wouldn't, like, fit in, all the rest of it? And he said, he said, yeah, yeah, he said, yeah, you, you won't find— you'll find lots of people won't be happy about about you being there, and there'll be lots of resistance, and the organisation may not always have your back, um, but, uh, but yeah, you've got to do it. It's what you're supposed to do. Um, and so that was quite— that was a significant— so there was no one massive moment at all, and I wouldn't make a decision simply based on what somebody else thought, regardless of how well they knew me and how much I respected them. But that was certainly a big moment for sure.
[00:20:07.070] - Ursula
Yeah, so it's a series of moments that all add up to being like, yep, Yeah, I'm gonna do this. And can you tell me, what sacrifices do you feel you made to kind of make this, this pivot? I know talking to lots of people that they kind of go, well, you know, what does it mean for my finances? You know, what does that mean, like you said, for your lifestyle? Yeah, what does that mean for people around me? So, you know, what, what sacrifices did you make? And looking back from where you are now, what do you— how do you feel about those sacrifices?
[00:20:37.230] - Alex
It doesn't really feel like I have made many sacrifices, to be honest. I, um, I thought the money side of things was going to be something— was going to be a huge big deal, because obviously by the end I, I was— I'd been in advertising a long time. I was, I was, you know, on a reasonable salary actually, um, and to go from that to absolutely nothing for 2 years other than a sort of— I mean, the church is really, really generous in terms of they pay for your training and they give you somewhere to live during your training, but you've got kind of like peanuts to sort of spend compared to what, you know, living and working in advertising is like. Um, but it didn't— I just didn't really— I don't know, I didn't really bother me, to be honest. Um, as I said, I'm not— we— for me, and I was talking to a friend and they just said, oh no, you know, I could never— the thought of like not being able to have really amazing holidays and go to the absolute best restaurants would be a really big deal for me.
[00:21:38.520]
And that's just not how it is for me or for my partner Dave. So, you know, wasn't, wasn't, it wasn't a big deal actually. I was surprised how little that bothered me.
[00:21:51.370] - Ursula
Yeah, something very interesting there, isn't it, about when you're, when you're living your values and truly deeply living your values, perhaps some of the things that you think are important actually turn out to be less important than you, than you think. And for some of— and for some people, those things might be incredibly important, whatever, and that's okay too, because the ability to be able to do that could, you know, could well be part of your— part of your values, and experiencing the world in that way is also totally fine. But I'm always interested in, yeah, what people's perception is of what they've had to sacrifice. So, you know, thank you very much for that. What did it feel like, you know, in that 2 years where you were not earning much money and you were going through this training programme? So clearly you gave up the advertising in order to do this. You didn't run the 2 in tandem.
[00:22:45.960] - Alex
No, I didn't.
[00:22:47.280] - Ursula
You made a decision to stop—to stop and to explore the next step. So, you know, what did it feel like to be in that shift over those 2 years? Would you say?
[00:22:55.370] - Alex
Um, to be honest, it felt like coming back to life in some ways. Um, I was quite surprised at how it felt. Um, I was there in this theological college in the middle of the Oxfordshire countryside, um, and, um, it felt like I'd stepped out into the sunshine, and I was looking around going, oh, hang on, what happened? Um, and I think that's— I think now, I mean, now I'm back in a routine again because I've been in the same job for 4 years. And like, life kind of does operate on a cyclical basis no matter what job you do, I think, doesn't it? Unless you're literally kind of, you know, starring in different films every 5 months and doing different creative projects all the time. But for most of us that have any kind of regular job, you know, inevitably there is that cycle. But stepping out of that cycle for the first time in in like 20 years was really exciting and really, um, it was really life-giving actually, being able to spend my time kind of, um, studying and hanging out with people and doing weird funny little creative plays and stuff like that was just brilliant.
[00:24:12.640]
It was just lovely. Um, it really did feel Uh, so exciting. Um, yeah, I can't— yeah, I was surprised how, how good it felt.
[00:24:26.460] - Ursula
And what do you feel like, you know, all that kind of whole career that you had previously, what do you feel like in terms of strengths and experience you've sort of brought with you to this new world that you now operate in?
[00:24:39.820] - Alex
Yeah. I've also been really surprised how relevant the life experience I had in advertising has been in this job, actually, and I wasn't expecting that. And people assume that there is no crossover at all often, but there, there really is, actually, because in advertising you're always thinking about how people are and how we can influence that or change that. You, you don't have the luxury of ever thinking, oh, people shouldn't be like that. And actually, sometimes in churches, people can resort to— not in my church, but in other churches I've heard— people can be a bit, a bit, oh, people shouldn't be like that, or they can be quite judgy about other people. And I think just knowing, well, that's not how they are, and that's not who they are, and that's not how they think, so we're gonna do and how can we be helpful and encourage people to, you know, think about things in a different way, is actually a really useful skill set to have. And also being a bit of a self-starter and recognising what can we do, and being, being certainly being creative and thinking about how you can present ideas and draw people in and build teams and stuff like that, is all really, really significantly useful actually.
[00:26:01.920]
So it's been a lot more helpful than I thought it was going to be.
[00:26:05.730] - Ursula
So you haven't been doing any kind of writing any straplines or, you know, doing any kind of brand strategy for your church or anything like that then? It's not been that—
[00:26:13.330] - Alex
I have. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's me making a bit of a joke, but no, we haven't, we haven't used it in those terms. But I mean, but you know, I'm knowing what you're, what you stand for and what you're about. Yeah. And coming up with a vision that, that other people will be able to get behind and feel part of. I mean, that's, that's, that's absolutely essential to running a church, right?
[00:26:35.940] - Ursula
You're absolutely right. How amazing. How amazing.
[00:26:40.220] - Alex
And also, I don't know, I think, um, I think these days, yeah, people, people expect a certain level of professional finish to everything they see in life. And actually, often that's where churches fall short, and we can look pretty hokey and and rubbish. And of course, that's not the most important thing at all, but it does help in just being able to express what you're about and get other people on board with that.
[00:27:07.820] - Ursula
Yeah, it's another— it's another example of what you're talking about, about meeting people where they're at, as opposed to expecting that they should. The lovely should word, which I always think we should ban. We should ban it from our language, that should word, which is, as you say, inevitably judgy and other people's— it's other people's opinions. So actually, when you learn to meet someone where they're at and being able to provide it in a way that they feel is familiar and, and that they can relate to, all of that's super important, as you say, isn't it? You know, joking aside. Yeah, lovely. So, um, from where you are today, what does life look and feel like now, and how would you find— define success from, you know, from the place you're at right now?
[00:27:59.530] - Alex
Um, I absolutely love this job. I, I adore my congregation. They are just— they are actually just as smart and funny and creative and interesting as the people I worked in advertising with.
[00:28:15.990] - Ursula
Um, oh, I love that. That's fantastic.
[00:28:18.600] - Alex
Yeah, and they, um, yeah, every week presents me with another set of kind of funny little creative challenges to solve. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I really enjoy it. And I don't— and the bits that are— I think what I was— the biggest shift is my life has become on one level a lot smaller Whereas before, as you know, we'd be flying around the world and seeing people from different places and making, helping make decisions that will affect an awful lot of people in a very small way. So an awful lot of people will probably see an advert for Cadbury's, but it will make an infinitesimal difference to their actual life. Whereas now, I am, you know, the number of people I come into contact with is much, much, much smaller and very, very localised, but the level of kind of engagement and conversation and the way we do life together is much— is profoundly different to that. And that's why my— I'd made a little kind of, well, maybe if I go and work as like brand manager in a fair trade chocolate company, I can sort of just do a little sidestep from where I was, and that will feel better.
[00:29:41.800]
But really and truly, I wanted to get my hands dirty and get in, you know, and get close to people and build something on the ground. I absolutely love just— it's, it's real, and, um, you get, you get stuck into it, you know. There's always a joke about vicars spend a lot of their time moving chairs, and we do, we do spend a lot of time moving chairs, but, but it's because you're trying to create a space that you want people to come into and feel at home in, and you want to make people feel comfortable and at ease. And, um, I, I love it.
[00:30:15.260] - Ursula
I love it. It's great. So yeah, I think it's really interesting what you said about that kind of impact thing, you know. Yes, you might do something that has a very tiny impact for a lot of people, but actually what you're finding much more impactful for yourself and your own fulfilment is to have a a much deeper impact on a smaller number of people because that's a much more fulfilling and profound type of impact for you. Yeah, that's really interesting because I think a lot of us, you know, think about, I want to get— reach as many people as possible. And, uh, actually sometimes it's not about that. It's actually about reaching a smaller number of people in a more profound and deep way. Yeah, I really like that. Would you say?
[00:30:58.600] - Alex
I mean, there's still— don't get me wrong, there's still metrics, and there's still kind of, you know, ways in which we can measure success, you know. And I still keep a close eye on the size of my church and how many people are coming and, and how often they're coming and, uh, kind of how much they're getting involved and all of those things that kind of are indicators of, you know, of things being successful, I suppose. So I, you know, it's— there's still that kind of way of measuring things that you have to be careful doesn't completely overtake you. And obviously it has some value as well, do you know what I mean? I mean, it's a good indication, isn't it? People are showing up and getting involved, then you're doing something that people are valuing, I suppose. But obviously, you know, it's not the only thing.
[00:31:45.140] - Ursula
Yeah, it's sort of, it's an intangible, slightly arm's length thing, but the real stuff is the, yeah, the the intangible stuff. Yeah. So what are you most proud of, you know, in this whole journey that you've been on, this big pivot or this series of mini pivots to get to the big, the big change in direction? What do you feel most proud of in yourself?
[00:32:08.430] - Alex
One of the things I'm most proud of is that I managed to step into the unknown. I'm very bad at stepping into the unknown, and it was quite a long period of time between leaving advertising and ending up here in this church. Where I didn't know where this was going, and I didn't know what sort of a job I'd be able to get. Uh, when I— you do a 3-year trainee curate job, and then at the end of that, you, you have like 8 to 9 months, I think, or something. You have a period of time where you have to find a job. If you don't find a job in that time, you're out on your ear, you lose your home. Um, so it— and that was stressful. That, for me, that is exactly the sort of— I don't enjoy that kind of uncertainty. And I had to really hold out for the thing that I thought was right. Um, I am— my background, the sort of church I'm from, is very informal, very relaxed. Um, you know, people would probably describe it as happy clappy, and I'm okay with that. Um, you know, we are not, um, we don't use lots of old language, we don't use loads of robes, we are friendly and informal and we— and, and passionate about what we're doing, actually.
[00:33:25.510]
Um, and particularly, it would have— and there weren't that many churches like that that would consider having somebody like me as their vicar. Um, and I couldn't think— I could only think of one. Um, and the whole time I was thinking about this, and it was this church, actually. Um, and I'd never even been here. I just heard about it. Um, and so that was one of the other reasons I decided to do it. I thought, fine, well, that St. Luke's can't be the only church that's like that. Um, so I made it on that basis. Now, I haven't found another church like St. Luke's, but then the vicar here retired after 23 years, just when I started to look for a job. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to try and hold this lightly. But I did not hold it lightly. And so I did apply for other jobs half-heartedly, but I I knew this was the one that I wanted to do, and I felt was the right one. I felt that I could make a difference in, in a way that I couldn't anywhere else. Um, and I had to hold on for a long time, um, to wait for it to come up and to apply for it and to get it.
[00:34:28.060]
So I'm proud of myself for doing that because that is not my natural comfort zone at all. I really struggle with uncertainty, and I'm really proud of, of how much this church has is, well, just everything they, they are and, and, and what it's like and the level of like welcome and love that there is in this place. I mean, that's, that's not just me, obviously, but I'm, I, I'm proud that I've, I've been able to do my bit in that, in that place.
[00:35:00.720] - Ursula
Sounds like a great place to come visit.
[00:35:03.720] - Alex
Everyone's welcome.
[00:35:08.260] - Ursula
Watch out for me in the congregation.Yeah, thank you for that. And so it sounds to me like there's a whole big thing of trusting the process, the trusting that it will, it will come good, um, or divine intervention, whichever way you like to look at it. But that sense of trusting the process is, uh, is, is a real challenge, isn't it? But, uh, so rewarding if you can just hold out for what you believe in and what you know is right. So Yeah, yeah, fantastic. So, you know, through that, through that process, was there any kind of, you know, things, habits that you did, daily rituals, or a belief you had to let go of, or a way of seeing things that you had to adopt in order to help you sort of navigate this whole, you know, pivot process, if you like?
[00:36:00.080] - Alex
I had to let go of other people's negative reactions, to be honest. Um, it was, it was a bit of a thrill telling everybody in the ad, in the ad agency where I was working that I was going to go be a vicar, just because I loved how random that is and how unexpected that was. And I was a little bit offended if they weren't— didn't think it was unexpected, to be honest. Um, but, um, I think, yeah, not, not worrying about other people's reactions was, was something I needed to learn to do, or at least focusing on the people who I really valued and respected, um, and not, and not worrying about the people that I didn't, to be honest.
[00:36:46.600] - Ursula
Yeah, not get buffeted around by the general moray of opinions and just choose the you know, to listen to the people that you really trust, that know that they've got your best interests at heart. Yeah. And if somebody listening to this podcast is feeling stuck and has got this kind of feeling going on inside that they want to make a change but they don't know how they're going to start, what they're going to do, this kind of icky feeling that something's not quite right, what would you want them to know?
[00:37:24.170] - Alex
I would want anybody who's questioning the sort of direction their life is taking to know that, uh, well, there's always something else. There is always anything in life, um, I believe can be redeemed. I mean, I'm gonna, you know, I'm, I'm a vicar in, in a church, so I say, you know, obviously it's like my whole theology is, you know, is, is about redemption and salvation. And basically, whatever you are and whatever choices you've made and wherever you've ended up, there's always hope. There's always something else you can do. Sorry, I'm gonna preach it right at the end of the podcast. But I think, yeah, for me, that, that's an absolutely central core belief. Um, that there's, there's always another way. There's always something else you can look at and try, um, and go, go and find out. Go and kind of— I think, you know, obviously in my particular context, I could explore what church leadership looked like without actually being a full-time church leader. So I could go, but I imagine that's, that's probably true of pretty much anything that you might want to choose to go into, isn't it? You can go and explore it and just go and do it and see what it's like and see how it fits and see how other people react to you doing it.
[00:38:38.390] - Ursula
I love that. I didn't think it was preachy at all, actually. I love that thing about there's always something else, because in times when things feel really hopeless, to kind of know and remember that there is something else is such an important thing to know and such an important thing to remember. So thank you for, thank you for bringing that up. And is there something for you that you wish you'd known sooner in life? Or something that you would have— something that you wish someone else might have said to you before you made this shift?
[00:39:13.780] - Alex
I feel— I think, yeah, here's the thing. When our culture is so obsessed on youth and young people, and I think there's such a strong sense that like as soon as you're like over 35 that's kind of it, really. All you can ever hope to do is either be really good in the path you're already on or retire. And actually, um, I just want to say nonsense to that. Um, great. And there are loads of jobs as well that if you come into it with a bit of life experience, you can do it so much better. I mean, I dread to think what I would have been like trying to, like, lead a church when I was 25. It would have been pretty car crash in lots of ways, I think. Whereas actually swanning around London doing advertising when I was 25 was brilliant. So yeah, I think that just get on with it and don't worry. And that's a big part of it, I think, is just dealing with other people going, oh, but you know, you're nearly 40, how can you possibly think of doing this? This is undignified and crazy to go and and try and totally turn your life upside down.
[00:40:29.080]
And I just kind of go, well, watch me, actually, um, which was a very difficult thing for me to think and say, but I'm really, really glad that I did. I think there's also a thing about, um, sort of making peace with your, your past as well, because after I left, I did, I did always have that thought, oh, maybe I should have done it sooner, or maybe, maybe this could have been different. And Now I don't feel— actually, ironically, it was watching Mad Men last year. Um, we— I realised it was on one of the— is it on Netflix? I think one of the platforms we had access to was on. I'd never watched it while I worked in advertising because it just felt too close to reality. And I was just like, I don't want to be watching people sitting bitching about each other in, in, in meeting rooms, um, you know, on my evening when that's my whole day job. Um, so But actually, now I'm out of it, I was like, I really, really enjoyed it and really got into it. And it made me think, actually, oh wow, I'm— yeah, obviously, you know, there— you've probably seen it as well, you know, there are lots of ways in which there's nothing like working advertising in the 21st century, but lots of ways in which it really was the same.
[00:41:36.730]
And actually, um, it made me sort of make peace with it and go, I'm really glad I did that. I'm really glad I was part of that weird, strange world that, in all honesty, I probably wasn't very well suited to, but I did it. And I proved to myself that I could do it, uh, but I don't have to do anymore.
[00:41:52.600] - Ursula
Yeah, well, thank you for those— thank you for those insights. They're absolutely great. And, um, again, love that whole thing about, um, when you get to over 40, there's still so much for people to, to contribute and to offer. And I'm very sort of interested in the whole sort of, you know, non-retirement thing, you know, we can always continue to do something and if we want to, and not having to kind of switch everything off and go to lunch for the rest of your life. And so, yeah, it's all about knowing what you want, knowing what makes your heart sing and what, you know, what contribution you want to make to yourself, your family, and, you know, to your community. So thank you so much, Alex, for such a fantastic and rich conversation. Conversation today and so many insights to take away, which I shall definitely be reflecting on myself. And so for everybody who's watching or listening to this, you know, if this conversation sparked something in you today, you know, don't forget to subscribe or sign up to the newsletter so that you can— you always know when a new episode's coming out.
[00:43:00.840]
You can also download my free reflection guide, Goodbye Stuck, Hello Possibilities. It's kind of full of questions and prompts to sort of help you get out of where you might be now and step into what might be next. So you can, you can have a go with that and use that in the meantime. So until next time, thank you so much for tuning into The Big Life Pivot, and thank you, Alex, again for such a brilliant conversation. It's been fantastic.
